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https://ddnet.tw/testmaps/?map=Cryptic

why r these corners gone

not marked

freeze

you can cheat shotgun by falling next to the shield but still being unsolo

please switch up the "Switch" and the game layer

you can see what number the switches are

When release

when stfu

pls do a playtrough

it took me and qed 2 and a half hours to get to 50%?? idk if it was further

the map looks very unpolished

actual testers wont spend this much amount of time on this otherwise

It’s a puzzle map so releasing a play through kinda defeats the purpose bc it’s not insane or even that hard if you know the route

well i guess you will wait until

decides to play it

Haha yeah, thanks for testing though, I’ll fix the problems you found now

That’s intended as you can go outside the map into that area

Also that is the intended way to get sg

then whats the timed switch with swing for?

only bait?

It’s used to help for something else

if its for the sg bug

its cheatable then

The sg bug is just for both to fall in at the same time, can you do it without timing the fall?

Also how many doors at the ending did you get, there’s 7 total in order of difficulty imo

0 xd

i think endless is the furthes we have got

laser,nade,endless

Yeah

You almost got the first one

after that we got hardstuck

It is the easiest to figure out but the longest

we both tought we need telegun

but couldnt figure it out

You can get telegun at that point

It is kinda tricky tho

I’m not sure what you mean by this one, if u mean the green part on top not connecting, that’s just how the tileset is, it only has the green on ceiling tiles and I didn’t make any extra tiles for that case

Marked unmarked section and opened it up so its clearer put switch layer above game layer

imo just because this is a difficult puzzle i don't think it is insane. it should always be based on the gameplay, since once the solution is known, the only "challenging" thing about it left is the gameplay

let whoever finishes the map decide if it's really insane i guess but i don't think any of the parts look technically challenging. just some tech you haven't considered

insane maps are all very challenging mechanics. i think this would be the first map outside of that

Yeah that’s a fair point and it goes for all puzzle maps, I wanted to make one much harder than ones already on ddnet and those go up to brutal 3 without being technically challenging so I figured insane 1 isn’t that far fetched

i think the fact that it's insane at all is the issue. it will likely get moved to brutal 4-5 in that case

someone still has to beat it tho

I think that’s for the testers to decide, but I personally feel like if u stumble across this in brutal that’s kinda annoying since it’s very hard to figure out

flow fever is in brutal

this can fit aswell

you underestimate how many maps in brutal are "hard to figure out" lol

You underestimate how hard it is to figure out…

that doesn't invalidate my point though. your point was that if a map is insanely hard to figure out, it would annoy people looking to play brutals. there are already maps that are hard to figure out, and once the solution is known anyway, it will play like whatever difficulty the gameplay is

Yeah and I agree with that point 100% so maybe it should be brutal 5 or something but I put it here since if I put it in brutal people would say it’s too hard to figure out

and as you said the gameplay is confirmed by you to not even be hard

earlier

Id say it’s mid brutal at hardest

there's a chance it may be rated even lower for that reason

how do filter

otherwise this becomes a "free points" situation

i think we shouldn't give spoilers until a playthrough is released so i will dm you

isnt brainduck2 hard to figure out?

Not as hard as this imo

and thats a 3* map

i still do not think "which is harder" is getting us anywhere anyway

It’s not but just explaining why I labeled it insane

if it's hard at all and it constitutes part of the difficulty, that won't be as important if the solution is publicly known

Obv it’s up to testers where it goes

yes i know im saying this for IKU

i should become a tester

hold on ill go release 4 maps

https://ddnet.tw/testlogs/show/Dummy_IQ

read trough this i reccomend

i think same thing will happen to this map

way too much bug abuse

Yeah that’s possible, but Most of the bugs in this are found somewhere in other maps in different ways this just is a map about that

sounds cringe but we could make a category for this stuff

maybe a terrible idea idk

experimental

mapbug

stop trying to make 900 categorys wtf

one for dummy advantage maps

one for puzzle maps

old players whenever anyone tries to change one thing

There’s only like 5 puzzle maps on ddnet rn, I don’t think it needs a a category

etc...

literally hugest copium

I do think more puzzles would be good tho since some ppl like me enjoy solving them

Gl with that if I couldn’t will be harder for you

guys let's never split novice in half cus it's "always been like that"

meh

probably true. you're a good mapper and tester

i said that

i spend a lot of time on my maps but never rls because I'm lazy

you are a pro tester in my eyes

ill be waiting for your puzzle partners run without any help 👀

i made no claims about my ability to solve hard puzzles

meh everyone would rather run parallel arguments in here it seems

not the place for it anyway imma dip

true lets talk about the gameplay wich (i think) only me and qed tested 40% trough

Fixed a couple issues found in testing

stop spam

if ur message isnt gonna contribute to the testing of the current map then it goes in

especially if it opens up to discussion

• difficulty rating is done after all tests are finished, so we can decide it later (if map is readied)

fixed a softlock

Polished map some more and reworked tp3 so its less of a red herring

Also ty to Reimu for playing through it

For this map to be tested properly, we need a playthrough

Otherwise we dont know whats intended

And u can delete the video i guess if this map gets released after testing

I just ran it and recorded a demo so the testers can see how its done

Alright

I can record it and upload to youtube if that works better for ya'll

or I can just send the demo

Youtube would be nicer but demo also works

I'll do youtube then it's not too much work

Good

Fixed a skip and added a couple small parts +some design changes

thoughts on logo?

u can just put design by voxel

its cute tho

i didnt do the tileset

itd feel wrong to have the credit be taken upon me for that

Design help is better

pseudo is really funny

or even just Logo by Voxel

He also made the bg which looks really nice

+logo +other small changes

spacing on design by voxel

move down by 2 pixel maybe

or move right so it doesn't interfere with ys in by Skystrife

fixed logo

a couple small texturing details

+timecps

New parts feel a bit rough. Skystrife can we jump on later to discuss

made fixes

Final Gameplay changes + small design fixes ty to soapy for testing

fixed server setting

Fixed a skip and added to the secret room

small design fix

Fixed a small skip

updated secret room

Remove these stoppers, they turn it from a puzzle to just an annoying part.

Missing corneres both sides

Rather put this shield in stoppers I think so it's clearly visible. Nicer to make it clear in a puzzle map

Speeder in wrong place

I assume this is just a troll?

Can you not make a way into the secret area that doesn't look like it may be part of the map? Place a tp roof that you have to get through similar to the end of the part. Just so it's more clear what you have to do.

Make this timer switch 1 second longer I think. So it's not too rough to get both people through it.

First couple bugs were from me testing something and must have submitted wrong version of the map 😦 Fixed shield on tele 7 Button 14 is part of the secret room Made timer 1 second longer

Will talk with you tomorrow abt secret room placement.

demo

took 6 hours in total to beat the map

very creative mindfuck gameplay

map too easy dont recommend it for anyone 👍

lmao

imagine needing help for such a simple part

fixed a skip that allowed I.K.U to finish the map. Shouldn't be possible anymore

wow nice

when the carry

so the map is unfinishable now?

Nah other people can finish I just made a part that checks if I.K.U is playing and doesn’t let them through

wait we are on insane server

Yeah that’s what I originally thought this map would be and it is insane to solve but some people think it can’t be insane because once a solution is known then it’s not insane anymore but that’s for the testers to decide

u will probably get 5 minutes finishes on this map

I think about 7-8 minutes if you are perfect, I can do 12 minutes with dummy

there will cheats coming up tho. Its almost impossible to make puzzle maps 100% uncheatable

before release

unfortunately people will be posting youtube videos on how to do it perfectly

so i don't think it should be insane unless it requires insane level mechanical skill

its defintely not insane

brain makes the map harder but not brutaler

I mean maybe, there’s no vid for puzzle partners yet

I mean its a 7-8 minute map that takes over 6 hours for the best players to solve so I think its pretty hard

that doesnt make it insane

I mean there's no maps like this yet, so that's for the testers to decide the difficulty of it like I said

im a retired tester

i can tell you its not an insane map because the parts itself are not hard

but rating is probably to be done when the map is ready so far

it’s maybe 1* insane for solving but one people does it, will get leaked everywhere and they don’t need to figure out the map anymore

didn’t try the map but i assume it’s like this

Maps like Justice (if played legit) needs brain asf but the parts itself are also pretty hard and the maps long. Thats why they are insane.

^

Yeah I mean that's all fair, the only thing is, if this map is rated like low or even mid brutal, and ppl are just cycling maps to play it is a lot harder than ppl will think based on the difficulty

I actually need to see gameplay on this one

i guess it can be a high brutal. But Insane is for the real evil shit. I wouldnt even rate Ravillion Insane

I mean Ravillion was insane before for sure, when ppl found out how to do skip ways then not anymore

When im home

I took him through a good bit of it

"took hin trough" meaning "i forgot the part" 😴

Nah he’s a tester so I properly showed him parts since he’ll make an actual judgement

Your testing is also really helpful since it’s good to see how people tackle parts differently and I thank you a lot for the time you spent

as someone who played this map, I can say: definitely one of the maps of all time

what about initially release this map as insane 1, and after one day rerate it to brutal? Like what happened to somnium but the other way around kek

A map that can be finished over and over again in 10 minutes once u got the way is just not insane

imo this map would only be insane if it would be impossible to find the solution from videos/other people

inb4 novice, purely from replay ability

last part only took ~40mins

gg wp

Thanks for testing the map Type and I.K.U!

Yeah that makes sense, but you do only get points for the first finish.

i think the map should be 5* brutal

probably the most complicated thing ever in the game to figure it out

I do think it’s fair to say the difficulty of the map is insane if you have to solve it yourself which is how most of the player base will encounter this map(by voting newest brutal or insane map).

but you cannot prevent people just watching a video

90% wont figure it out themselves

most people will ask a friend who already finished

That’s fair

id say 5* too

maybe 0* insane lol

will have the same amount if points as 5* brutal but called insane

idk if that makes sense

maybe it should be

sounds weird

its a psychological thing

people would be more motivated for an insane map than one of x 5* brutal maps

all i care is to get released so i can get however many points it is

5* brutal maps are reserved for crappy t0 maps

almost true

5* brutals mostly very faily maps

How would you compare this to puzzle partners

spooky hard carried me on that map

but i think that map is way more general being good at the game, and this map is more about mechanics

how things interact with eachother

2 very different kind of puzzle types

I mostly remember doing shotgun bug like 10times on this map and the rest was mostly solo-ish parts

I like it but its very short compared to other puzzle type maps and with not too much teamwork involved

true

there are barely any teamwork

Idk insane rating just seems weird to me when puzzle partners is 3star and the brainduck maps are also brutals

But its always hard to rate puzzle maps since they don't really belong anywhere yet and they all are so different from each other

I personally think its a good bit harder than puzzle partners and the brainduck maps, but obviously its a bit shorter than puzzle partners and a lot shorter than brainduck 2 at least. I feel like for the difficulty of it though its more of how long it takes to solve and not how long the map is in general, bc if I made it very much longer it would take many more hours to solve and would be less fun

Puzzle partners is still under 50finishers and half of them is soapy sandwich and coke helping people through

puzzle partners is 100% the hardest puzzle on ddnet rn

It's puzzles are more about using known things in different ways, Cryptic is more mechanics that are lesser known

Ill beat I.K.U for top time in this map

If you go into cryptic knowing how all the mechanics work in general I think its easier to solve than puzzle partners, but noone I've met knows all of these mechanics, even soapy didn't know the last one

I think that speedrunning this map will be really interesting actually

since it's nonlinear you can do a lot of different routes

I brainstorm a lot with soapy when we accidentally find weird mechanics in other maps that level creators didn't even intended

I do the same! That's the best way to learn about the game imo

Just hard to put in maps since half the things just get rejected by testing

some things i've found really don't lend themselves well to parts

If this gets rated insane, Puzzle Partners needs to be rerated

its not gonna get rated insane

$change server brutal

fixed corners

thank you

for all your help

fixed corners in speedup

How many stars Should this map be?

dont rls yet

theres one last design bug that needs to be fixed

ok its good now

Having thin walls makes the map too dense and hard to read

A couple of the puzzles in the map require the thin walls so I went for that design throughout and to change it I'd have to change how a lot of things work as well as redesign the tileset for wider walls

Cryptic uses shotgun bugs to go through tiles which is forbidden

We talked about that internally and it has been agreed that "puzzle maps are not an excuse to use bugs"

I'll decline the map until you find an alternative

$decline

Can I ask what the reasoning is for puzzle maps to not be excused for this? There are only 3 real puzzle maps on ddnet(puzzle partners and the 2 brainducks) and all 3 of them use sg but in some place to skip blocks because it is a hard skill to fully understand making for a hard puzzle

and why should they be excused? Cause as far as I'm concerned they're just normal maps but with intentionally confusing gameplay design. And yeah a few odd released maps do use bugs but we want to move away from it and make the rules about using bugs clearer.

I personally really enjoy figuring out mechanics in this game and testing the limits. Looking at a seemingly impossible part that uses a weird game mechanic that was originally a bug and figuring it out is a lot of fun to me and I’m sure to many others. This entire game mode is based on the bug that you can hook through corners, so I personally don’t think my maps or any specific maps should be excused or anything, I think that any map that is fun for the community to play should be able to be released. While the community of people who like puzzles is small, there are only 3 real puzzle maps on ddnet, so I feel like it would benefit to having more content for us.

Making rules about using bugs and what is or isn’t a bug is completely arbitrary as well. Aled could also be considered a bug for example, and I also think it’s good for people to learn these bugs or mechanics because they are useful in skips for older maps as well as when mapping to avoid skips, and knowing game mechanics is a useful skill.

If you are disallowing sg bug for the reason "confusing gameplay design" then you are really just disallowing the puzzle map genre which is very upsetting to me since those are the most fun maps for me to play, and is why I wanted to make more maps for this community.

Of course, for a normal drag map, if they randomly include a sg bug or other puzzle mechanic that most people don't know about, the map could benefit by removing it since the point of the map is to have nice flow and have parts work well together, but for a map that is meant to make you scratch your head on how things are possible like the brainduck series, puzzle partners, or this, I personally think using any mechanic is fine, and disallowing certain mechanics just inhibits creativity in parts.

Imo if you have to use bugs and obscure game mechanics then you don't know how to make a good puzzle, that's simply bad gameplay. You should come up with a handful of good mechanics that are clearly known or explained to the player and make clever use of them instead of relying on players not knowing something about the game.

I don't have to rely on obscure game mechanics(also I would argue sg bug is not that obscure at this point). For this map, I wanted to make something that uses a lot of obscure game mechanics though since I wanted to make the most challenging puzzle that I could that is still possible to solve. It also uses these mechanics and known mechanics in creative ways. This map is not for everyone, but it is for the people who enjoy figuring out mechanics in the game, and like I said disallowing certain mechanics disallows creativity. "using sg bug is lazy and obscure mechanic that is not creative" but having people easily know that sg bug is needed but needing to find a clever way to stack on top of each other, or a clever way to manipulate the speed of the sg bug is what you have to do to solve the map. It isn't just lazily throwing in a new mechanic, I made it in such a way that just knowing the mechanics doesn't solve the puzzle at all really, but does help.

I know that you haven't played through the map, so you may not know how things are implemented, but every mechanic I use is done in a clever way and not just making the challenge be knowing an obscure mechanic. If the challenging parts in the map were just needing to know that you have to sg bug or know that you get infinite speed on a speeder or something then yes that is lazily done, but if the mechanic gets introduced to you like that, then later you need to use it in a creative or different way, then that is not lazy or bad gameplay, that is a good puzzle imo

Indeed I haven't played this map, but if you say that you don't need to rely on bugs and obscure mechanics then just don't

Check out maps made by Vasten100 to see some awesome cleanly made puzzle maps

I don't "need" to rely on it, but it is a creative and mostly unexplored mechanic that I and many others find very enjoyable so I decided to make a map using it as one of the parts. I don't see why there's such a need to take away a mechanic from mappers when it's been in the game for years and has been used in the past

No mechanics are being taken away, only ways to make the speed calculation freak out which is a buggy behavior that shouldn't be used in maps. That and skipping tiles which has already been forbidden for a long time

it's buggy behavior that can be learned just as aled can be learned or hooking through blocks or hammering through walls or any other "bug" in this game mode

im only sad because this was my best map logo

thanks again Ravie for trying to smother creative advances in ddrace while 2hours from now you will ready braindead team0 map #200 which will make everyone happy here (mult0map was such a banger)

ravie didnt ready mult0map btw xd, he wanted it to be declined at first lol

There is a map from soapy which uses sg bug but doesnt go through blocks and its really cool. I think if you clearly see that you need to use teleportation trough blocks and you also have shotgun then its ok. Also I havent seen this map at all so maybe its deserved but the point about sg teleport being a bug thus not allowed is kinda meh, it WILL be obscure until ppl start to see and use it

heres my take: lets use this map to fix unneeded bugs in client

the only blocks sg bug can go through is kill tiles stoppers and shields. soapys map goes through stoppers, the problem with this one is that sg bug takes the player through a shield and they keep their weapon

shouldnt matter since hes the testing lead that allowed it to release anyway,sg bug has been a feature for a long time and hes still trying to stop people from using it even when its in new and creative ways

You're right, I'm just trying to kill creativity. That's why I would rather release simple, well made maps instead of overengineered stuff that barely anyone will enjoy playing

Why does it matter if not everyone in the community will play the map? I'm never going to play aimbot but its still a good map. This is the type of map that I really like to play and there are no more maps on ddnet to play so I made one for others like me. Is that not allowed for some reason?

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean no-one does

If they bug isn’t gonna be patched and maps already use it, it doesn’t seem like a good reason to decline the map imo

so if we could dumb down the map to moderate difficulty while it still uses the sg bug it would be releasable? or does oco(the most bug abused map) get special treatment since it was made by your best friend pulsar?

puzzle maps struggle by far the most to get released for how complex they can become but if we keep declining them then the creativity of mappers will completely dry up for not knowing these lesser known features that this game has tucked away and also discourage these puzzle mappers from trying to release something on ddnet,this map also uses the new weapon specific shields that no other mapper has used yet for the last 6months

Barely anyone enjoys playing insane maps yet well made insanes often feature the most interesting parts

So crazy hooks and edges with killtiles all over is not overengineered because its very hard to do rather than very hard to figure out

Thats only because not many are on that lvl of skill tho xd

well... exactly

So, ur point is that not many ppl play puzzle maps because not many are on that lvl of brain capacity?

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand puzzle maps. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of problem solving and DDNet's bugs most of the map will go over a typical player's head.

Wait we are finally gonna say no shotgun bug in the rules instead of ages ago when I said it should be announced XD

I'd say this map has good gameplay. Yes you can make a puzzle map without these things just like you could make a puzzle map without weapons. A map isn't just bad because it uses something that you don't understand. This was a puzzle map that is tricky to solve even if you know the mechanics. That made it quite a fun challenge.

A puzzle map that uses grenade is trash cause you need to know how grenade works to do it. Clearly shitty gameplay.

If maps that use bugs like these are going to be declined I think it is only obvious that it should be stated in the rules that bugs are not allowed, in order to save mappers the time and effort.

You had to point out in the rules far sooner for people to not use mechanics like this.

Again If you can make a puzzle map without grenade should people never use grenade? Stupid arguement.

The mapper shouldn't have to guess how much freedom they have when they are using obscure mechanics

Is shotgun bug in stacked not a mechanic that has now been taken away? Pretty sure something is being taken away

Yeah that's killing creativity. It's like the push back on releasing pseudo fly maps. How big of a community does a map type need to be worth it in your eyes.

Clever map that hasn't broken any rules that I can see, I believe it should be reconsidered

$waiting

We had a discussion about that

You can't simply come here and overrule the decision

If you have/had to argue, talk to us about it first, in our dedicated channel

Anyway, if they map had to be released on day, the design is still a problem

Blue and red tele should be marked properly as well

Blue tele is blue and red tele is black in the design I'm not sure what the issue is with that

In my memory both were black

Anyway, I'm sure there is a way to make it look less messy

In my eyes, it looks exactly like this :

I'm not trying to be mean

It's not sarcasm either

I personally do not see any issue with a map that looks like that being released if the gameplay is actually good and all of the entities are actually necessary for the map to work as intended

There are a lot of mechanics in this game and the ways to give them to the player is by walking over tiles, and you must separate them so the player can see what all they would have at each point in the map. I think Cryptic does a decent job at still looking clean both on entities and with design with how densely packed it is

i thought this was the actual map for a sec LOL

just start ur own server network i dont think there is much hope for u on ddnet

I think you're misunderstanding what I said

it's not "if you can make x without y, don't make x", it's about making clean gameplay and I don't consider using """mechanics""" that break the game's physics something that can be used to make that

Ik you hate puzzles but I don't see why every map released has to appeal to 99% of the community. There will be maps that some people like and others don't like. A lot of ppl hate Puzzle Partners, and if you do just dont play it. I personally think puzzle partners is a VERY well made map and is super fun to play. There should be some more maps like it in my opinion. Not every map, and maybe only one map a year or something, but to just say puzzles like that are no longer allowed is stupid and inhibits creativity.

well i dont hate puzzles i just dont like ones that use complicated tiles/bugs to become puzzles

either decline the map and change the rules regarding bugs, or give it a legitimate test instead of this bullshit regarding whether or not you like puzzle maps

I missed the discussion where it was officially banned. I would've expected to see that announced. Also I'd try to get the community involved either way.

I have spoken in the channel and I feel I should also share my opinion here.

Yeah I have no problem with that, but that behaviour was rude lol

I still feel this map is worth a release especially considering the rules were never laid out.

Expecting mapper to follow rules that aren't even told to them is ridiculous and I pointed that out when puzzle partners was released.

It's not like nobody knew, instead we saw it ok to let mappers waste their time instead of saying something?

At the very least tell people what they can't do/use, instead of letting people waste their time.

As for the "bugs" a lot the community sees them as features. Why not fix shotgun bugs math issues and make it work the same way if it's that much of a problem?

But if we ban maps I'll just try get more people to share their opinions on it.

I did spend well over 100 hours on this map through mapping testing myself, re-ordering everything, and testing with others. And for the people who tested this map and spent up to 10 or more hours solving it, all that time is wasted because there was no indication that this was not allowed. The gameplay is enjoyable according to the people who actually tested it but it is not enjoyable to the people who won't test it since they don't like the concept.

im trying to test ur map.

but i cant

so many ways. and dont know where start wheremy points where need to move. i do smth but dont undestend. all ur marks dosent help at all

maybe this is good map. but where to go? what i need? so many questions

Do you have the same experience playing Puzzle Partners? Confusion is kinda the point of a puzzle map.

trying find fisnih it's ok but i dont know what i need for finish

So now i undstn why i dont like this one

and like Puzzle Partners

on ur map i know where start, what is my goal i feel it like "solve smth right here just need look around more sensitivity". That because u have good lvl design. But when i play this map my though like "im dump and didnt see solve or im too early" u just confusing at all. thats cus have bad lvl design.

and he think good lvl design is too ez for players..But its is about enjoyble.

I spent 2 hours to understand this idea

everyone knows about sg "bug"

its clearly a feature

who said otherwise?

The people declining this map.

I didn't say not everybody knows about it, it's a puzzle, that's not the issue. The issue is to pass through tiles, that's why it was declined

I guess it should be mentioned in the "up to date" rules quick before someone maps with it.

I was under the impression that the only rule was you cannot pass through kill tiles, so I didn't map any parts with that. You can also pass through shields and stoppers with sg bug and those are the only tiles I pass through with them.

If that's not okay I feel like it should have been stated somewhere, but I personally feel it should be okay since sg bug is in the game and the fact it can pass through said tiles is actually useful in some skips for maps, so it is a good thing for people to know about both when mapping and when playing, and is a good tool for a puzzle map.

i would really call the gameplay very fun, but its definetly very rewarding to finally find the solution and i think its actually worth to figure out the parts

i totally agree with I.K.U. at the end, i recall solving this map was a really fun experience

Skipping tiles is an interesting feature. Just because some Guy who dont Play at all only want to allow boring generic parts it shouldnt be forbidden

boring generic parts you mean the actual game?

if i find it that boring simply uninstall

I don't see why it's so confusing. Just put "no bugs" in the mapping rules and decline the map. If that's too hard, find a real reason to decline it and give some actual critical feedback so that Skystrife can grow as a mapper.

"no bugs" is a very arbritrary and subjective thing in this game because literally 99% of the mechanics in this game started out as bugs and this is a map that just explores lesser known ones. They aren't changing the physics in the game so the map won't break. Their reasoning for not wanting bugs is because it makes the map less straightforward to play which is the purpose of puzzle maps like this.

Adding restrictions like this only makes people have less options when mapping.

If my map is awful then by all means I don't want it released, but the people who actually played through it and solved it all enjoyed it and the people declining it are doing so since they don't think this style of map should be on ddnet anymore.

This map also has much lesser known things than just the ability to go through shields when you have high speed, so if I make the parts in a different way that you don't go through shields they'll just find another thing wrong with it until there is no more puzzle.

My map follows all rules currently on the mapping rules list, and It also doesn't have a part that goes through kill tiles which is what I was told to avoid and would be okay.

In my opinion, I think every map that is enjoyable to some part of the community, follows the rules about good mapping style, and has a design that isn't awful to look at should be allowed in the game. Of course it is okay to limit a certain style of maps if they get overused, such as the limit on barren style maps, but to limit puzzle maps to None is very upsetting to me and others who enjoy this style.

Bugs accepted or not, the design remains a great problem, it's very appalling

What don't you like about the design? I spent a long time on it and think it turned out very good

Everything, its structure, it's super messy (and not because it's a puzzle)

What specifically? I made it as clean as I could while still implementing the parts that I wanted without any skips. Do you not like the nonlinear mapping style in general? I'm confused

(and not because it's a puzzle)

What don't you understand ?

The structure, its shape

Make it easier for the eye

I didn't decline it for nothing yet it's still in testing, while there is nothing to test

I really don't understand, the shape is bad? like what do you mean by that?

how can I fix it

what is a good shape????

Make it more aery, look at justice 2 for example, give some space to breathe and to see

None of the parts are very tight and all the rooms are pretty wide open so I'm not sure how it doesn't have space to breathe

i think he means just make the map wider

its too compact rn

1tile →2-3 tiles

altough with this entity set it would be really hard to map interesting structures imo

Could even be 10 tiles, but that's the idea

Unless it serves a specific purpose for being tighter, the areas in the map are generally at least 8 blocks high could you point out a part that is too tight or unappealing to look at so that I know what to fix

I'll look at it later

The problem isn't only that it's tight, it's crowded

Glassbox is tight for example, but there is nothing to block the way (extra entities)

So it's "fine"

Every part in Cryptic has multiple parts in it so you have to go back to do something else, that is part of the puzzle. If it was all more spread out then that would take away from the novelty of the puzzle and would also make it harder to solve since you have to spectate around further to know what you are looking for. It is open enough that you never bump your head or run into walls trying to play the map, but it's also compact enough that you can easily see the different sections without spectating around the map for an hour(like in justice 2)

puzzles where u have to "know the route" arent good mapping imo

for example rocketiskey

and i know this has actual parts too but

like ravie said before theres a difference in "normal" "bugs" and speed abusing "bugs"

i think the type of "puzzle" we rls on ddnet are those that take a simple idea or move and create something complex and thoughtful out of it

not something that takes complexity (multiple special tiles, powerups, bugs) and just confusingly jumbles it to create that complexity

not saying people cant enjoy one or the other, but just what we prefer to have

and yes we rls maps that are fun to players, but we also dont rls maps that wont be fun to a large % of the playerbase

so there has to be a balance when releasing a niche map

which is for example why we dont release gores maps

anyways i didnt even play this map i just wanted to add to the meta discussion cus i think its a valuable discussion to have

I didn't make anything intentionally more complex, rather everything is as simple as possible so that when you look at a part, there is only one solution that is not obvious. This makes for a good puzzle since you must either know the mechanic, or figure it out. This is not like rocketIsKey where you cannot tell what's going on at all and what powerups are where. Cryptic has every powerup you need labeled and clear where they are, but unclear how to get them.

I understand not releasing gores maps 100%, if people like gores, which a lot do, they have another outlet and can play on KOG.

But for a puzzle map, or any ddrace map actually, there is no other outlet other than ddnet really for peoples maps, and this is just pushing ddrace to the limit of what is capable with the different tiles and mechanics in the game.

Hooking through edges is a literal Bug of the game. Remove ddrace?

hammerflying too

Yes

I would say this map isn't really the same as rocketiskey.

The map has clear doors and clearly marked switches to hit to open them. It's like several mini challenges to get to the ending. It's also explained nicely in the info room.

Rocketiskey while interesting was a much more frustrating map to solve than this one as the goals weren't clear.

Another positive is that the order you do the objectives in isn't set in stone. You can tackle some other ones if stuck but working through them in order is a good way to get the map done.

Could you let me know what specifically I need to change so that it would be releasable?

i think first step remove all tp forward . use only for back

Ik you haven’t played through most of the map but there are a few parts that require those tps because of holding endless hook through the map, and other parts require the rooms to be sealed off in that way, so that’d just be making a completely different map with some of the same parts

I asked pipou since he said it was tight and crowded but I don’t understand what he wants changed about that since I wasn’t given any screenshots or specifics.

Ty to Desteros for testing and suggestions,

-Made a few parts more readable by moving things around -changed the part to get tpgun to use less entities so its not cluttered -removed some other entities around the map to avoid clutter. -made button 7 less difficult to perform

Why would you have the same image twice ? Are you using the whole tileset ?

The second question also applies to all the other tilesets

One of the main problem is that there are too many white lines (to display the blockers and other on/off tiles, but also the unhookable)

It's already less a pain to play

$waiting

would something like this be better, or do you just not like the tileset I chose much at all?

Also I didn't realize I had that in twice, it will be removed next time I upload and for that tileset I do not use every tile, but for the others I do use just about every tile

Yes, it looks better

made unhookable tiles darker and deleted duplicate image

What are we supposed to understand ? I thought the symbols marked where to get a weapon, but then, in entities telegun is marked on the left whilst it shows to go up in design

Maybe it'd need a key or a room to explain what each symbol does

You use white lines for on/off tiles but also for blockers, it's confusing

That could be a solution

I'm not saying that's the best solution

Let me do try something quickly

You could use quads instead of tiles with different groups and offsets

$waiting

Both of those teles go to the same room, so I originally just had the indicators point to the left tele but I chose to change that and forgot to update the entities, it's fixed now

fixed other screenshots

I started changing the on/off tiles to green/red, but didnt really like how it looked in a lot of places and I prefer my idea with the white and black. I made the stoppers have a bit of a blue tint instead to address the concern

Ok, are you still working on the changes ? Because it looks like that on the test server currently :

I'm stupid, the red/green layers I made invisible in editor but obviously that's not off in game

fixed that

The walls could be filled with entities

Are you supposed to guess what the buttons do ?

That's a button as well

Still very confusing

That's what makes it hard

That's another button

It really makes no sense

$waiting

all the buttons with the red dots must be hit to open the doors to the finish. It does not matter the order you hit them in or what does what since they all must be hit.

That switch with the symbol that looks similar to default weapon entities laser and also is right next to the laser in game switches on laser for you so that you keep it forever. I don't think that's too confusing

Any switch with the white button is just something that doesnt matter in terms of solving the map, but is necessary for the part, for example, that one is just a reset switch so you can get your tee back that gets stuck.

Either you change the visual or you write all that in a "help" room

I'll try asking people who never saw the map what they believe those bars and buttons do

I mean I get it if you have different weapons for a long time you might forget, but I do have an info room that has the thing about the switches

that's where i screenshotted this from

Ok then I'll tell you if that's enough depending on the feedback I'll get

fixed that entity bug

removed most weapon tele's from this part and opted to tune the laser reach up instead.

It likely is harder to solve like this since you are given less information to work off of, but it looks cleaner

did you move the TV?

I swear that tv moves every time I re-upload with the amount of times I've had to fix it haha

reverted this change since it makes the part skippable

$decline

What an odd definition of "puzzle" in my opinion. Completed few parts of this map and every one of them had a bug that i had no idea existed. Eventually just quit on yet another part that surely utilises another bug i don't know. From my understanding, puzzle map should be about figuring out the solution to a problem. And almost everywhere here i'm struggling to even find "the problem" aka the goal of what am i even doing. On top of that, puzzles should have a "rule set" that is core to the puzzle (or incorporate "figuring out ruleset" into a puzzle), but here it feels like looking for a needle in a haystack - i'm supposed to find that one very specific thing that often contradicts the normal rules of the game. This is not a puzzle map, this is a map where you want players to try every single thing imaginable until they achieve "something" they didn't even know they needed to do beforehand. Solving puzzles feels rewarding, feels good. Finding a bug after headbutting a wall for a while - does not.

I still don't know what to do with that map, I can't decline it nor accept it

archive it

Without knowing the bugs it would be a frustrating puzzle map. I found it very enjoyable but I was aware of most of the bugs going in. Many mechanics in this game might be seen as bad if you don't already know about them.
This map is aimed towards people who are aware of the bugs in the game and I think it does a good job at that.

There are maps that involve things that aren't obvious mechanics, like getting into one ways, moving through doors, shotgun bug, using the speed storage or getting ridiculous speed by taking advantage of weak bump. Even hammer fly could be seen as a bad mechanic if the player has no idea it is possible. This map is just a collection of those interesting mechanics and is not too difficult if you know about them.

If the puzzles should feel rewarding then it meets that criteria imo. You just need to know more about the game to enjoy it fully.

i would agree if those bugs would be something that you can actually learn intentionally like every other tech that is used in common maps

Wouldnt become common if even a single map like that gets into testing limbo

It's a puzzle map for people with alot of knowledge about the game. It's not a tutorial map.

What do I need to do to make it up to your standards?

Everyone who has actually played it enjoys it. I've had suggestions to make somethings easier, or the route more readable, and i'm open to making some changes to design to help out the player a bit on the puzzles.

the design is good in my opinion. I know that design is subjective but I spent a lot of time trying to make something that looks good and I'm proud of it. I agree it is less bright having the ground be darker so that does look a bit nicer, but you have just mentioned that its not easy on the eye but I don't know how else to fix that since in my opinion it is easy on the eyes and still displays all relevant information.

You've given me a couple things to fix on the design, then I fixed what you asked typically within the hour, you gave me a couple more things and I did the same, and then you just stopped responding and leave this in testing limbo since other testers wont touch it because the decision ultimately is yours as a testing lead.

If the problem is still the bugs it uses then please clearly lay out what bugs I am or am not allowed to use as a part of a map. I personally believe that all bugs and mechanics should be allowed if the map plays well. There are plenty of maps currently on ddnet that use some of the mechanics in this map in different ways, and those are the maps that I and many others most enjoy playing for that reason.

If there's any changes to the design you would like me to make for it to be a more readable map, or be "easier on the eyes" let me know, but I would like to do whatever I can to make it releasable.

I think all bugs that aren’t fixed yet, are used in other maps or aren’t planned to be fixed in the future must be allowed - everything else just wouldn’t make sense

I remember playing this map a little (like 3 months ago so I don’t know what has changed already) but to know the order in which you have to get into which door would be nice, I think time check points would be sufficient

updated timecps to show intended ordering of parts. You can do them out of order in many cases, but this was the intended route.

was this always there?

must've hit that when adding the time cp, ty

So, I've come to make the final decision about this map. There are 2 main reasons why I think it's not releasable: one is the use of speed-abusing bugs which we've recently decided to no longer allow, and the other is bad level design. From my point of view this is not a puzzle map, because a good puzzle only has a handful of clearly defined mechanics and uses them in mind-bending ways. What you have here is pure confusion created by bombarding the players with as many things as possible, including bugs which they may not even know about, and expecting them to find a way through all of it. Any maps with similar problems are going to be declined from now on.

$decline

who all came to this decision? for the most part the sentiment I've heard is that bugs should be allowed for maps if used in interesting ways. For example, a lot of things with abusing speed haven't been explored very much such as slow walking for setups, or using ninja with high speeds, and these things will never get explored if they aren't allowed.

If this is the way things are going to be can you please clearly lay out what I am not allowed to put in maps, and I will avoid them for future maps. "speed-abusing" could mean a lot of different things so I don't fully understand. It would be useful to update https://forum.ddnet.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=722 since my map follows every current rule there now.

Your second reason is not something you can attest to in any way since you never tested this map. The tester as well as players who tested this map know that it is not "bombarding the players with as many things as possible" and instead making all of their known options impossible making them have to find a new way to get through parts.

It is completely reasonable if its the consensus of the whole community that bugs aren't good for the game to decline this map, but if its just the opinion of you and maybe a couple others, then that's upsetting. And its even more upsetting to see someone who has never even played the map talk about how bad the level design is when others who did play it felt it was rewarding to solve and liked the puzzles.

"bombarding the players with as many things as possible" i somewhat agree with this

that's fair, and maybe my map is bad, but for that to come from someone who has not played it at all is not great.

Ah yes, Ravie coming in and nuking all the progress made

Not only the map doesnt break any rules currently but from a few parts i have actually seen being done there isnt any moment where you have to do everything you know in 1 part. "Mind-bending" gets a check as well. Its easy to see your goal and roughly what is possible and whats not but the solution is hard to spot yet not absurd. And lastly why half of this thread is about ppl not knowing bugs? Its an insane map without a playthrough duh

And saying that "maps with similar problems will now be declined" in a channel 0.01% of discord community checks is at least unfair

only thing im mad about is that my tv baby never gets to see the light of day🥹

Why was my f4 reaction deleted?

nextime

Its ok guys uncle soapy will read this next week and undecline it

give him that 10% off coupon for the next logo purchase

This is a shitty place to announce rules, oh I just had a new idea I don't think anyone has thought of before. What if we had a rules channel here on discord that we used to clearly outline what is and isn't allowed in DDNet maps? Maybe that way we can stop mappers from exploring unique ideas of months just to have their creations be thrown out. The forum should probably be updated too but if map testing is on discord it's stupid to not just put the rules here in a clear text. Speed-abusing bugs doesn't really clear things up, does this include going so fast that you start to slow down or stop? Does this include maps where you fall too far into stoppers or through doors? Does it include gaining speed while running into another tee?

This map is a puzzle map, to say otherwise is kinda stupid imo. I think what you mean to say is "It's not a good puzzle map". I found the map quite a good fun challenge but I went in with knowledge of 90% of the bugs used. If you know the hand full of things the map is about is bugs then it's not too bad and imo a good puzzle. It may have been better with a bug tutorial area to give players the knowledge required to make the map more fun.

I tried enough XD Almost made it, was making some good progress with Pipou I thought, but Ravie will always have final say on testing.

I'm just glad that the testing leads take suggestions like the mapper rules channel that was suggested for the first time ever today. I doubt they would take long to put it up because when they get a decent suggestion they don't take years to do it. They would hate wasting a mappers time like that.

Skystrife I am sorry that your time was wasted, it's honestly the fault of the testing community for not making the rules clear when they were discussed long before you started on these maps. I wish they didn't go these frustrating routes and I hope you don't become too anti DDNet or the testers as your skills would be extremely useful. I have never found someone better at skip detection.

if we haven't annoyed him too much he would make a brilliant tester with his knowledge of the game and ways to abuse bugs.

He can take my spot cause I am done with testing. I don't think I will ever test again (not that I was doing a cracking hot job before XD), It's become too frustrating XD. Oh I will love to still keep my title as tester though as one doesn't actually have to test maps to be a tester, but I'm sure if that was a problem someone would've reported it years ago XD

can I also get a free tester title😊 🥺

LAN server goes brrr i guess

NovaShock deserves a title! If it wasn't for him I would've missed that trash map "Sketch" that someone approved.

No, to me this map is not a puzzle at all. I've explained what a map needs to have in order to qualify as a puzzle in my eyes, and this one is just a mess.

We're not looking for testers with his skillset, we're looking for people who can help maps have clean and enjoyable gameplay and decline ones that don't have it.

Bashing my map now, huh? I would expect a fellow tester to be able to tell how meticulously made Sketch is 🙂. Certainly it's enjoyed by thousands of players as opposed to maps like this one.

🍿

No actually you explain what a "good puzzle" is to prove that this map isn't a puzzle... That's a stupid argument. You would need to explain what a puzzle is to make your argument remotely valid.

Puzzle = a game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

So this map definitely is a puzzle. You are just making shit up to criticize the map.

True seeing if maps have huge skips in them isn't an important thing for testers to do. Sorry Skystrife for misleading you, turns out you're useless.

Yes Ravie, I am bashing your map. I am bashing you. Maybe I am a shitty tester because I don't kiss your ass.

To be a good tester on DDNet you have to agree with the dumb shit you say. How could anyone not agree with the brilliance that is Ravie. I mean obviously not putting mapper rules on discord is the big brain play because Ravie hasn't done it when I told him ages ago to do so. Again you know best, I don't even see why Pipou was brought in to help with this if you were always right all along.

By that definition this is indeed a terrible puzzle, but to me such a terrible puzzle is not a puzzle at all. I recommend you read up a bit on game design for puzzles.

How long did it take you to solve this map?

'i was just lookin' will be the answer

its the main problem 😄

sadly i never played this bcs no time

Never too late :)

Haha I'll cancel the decline till you have time again XD

ok just giving my opinion i played the first room and it took me like 15 minutes. i'd like to say im pretty knowledgeable about ddnet physics and bugs, but obviously you can do the first room in 30 seconds. the reason i took so long is because i was stalled at this little speeder over ninja part that i didn't know whatever bug to use. after maybe 10 minutes, i just got it by freak accident and i still dont understand why. then boom the rest of the part was a cakewalk

see and the thing is, because i was stuck so long at some bug part, it wasn't as satisfying to finish the part, it was more of like "oh okay i guess thats how you do it" type feeling

a lot of these bugs are neat and all, but they don't belong in a puzzle map imo

just make a wiki page for them or something of the sort

the best puzzles/puzzle games take a simple set of rules and apply them to a complex layout/setting, not a complex set of rules applied to whatever layout

the puzzle part of that part is hinted with the huge 5 in the stoppers. either do 5 jumps, walk off from the top of the 5, or the middle of the 5 and you will get to ninja

oh it was just a setup ok

i thought the 5 was some mapper logo lol

yeah, it can be done with random luck as well, but the idea is more puzzly than just getting lucky

if you play the map thinking it's a puzzle to solve, working backwards, or looking for hints like that, then its much easier

of course knowledge of the physics in the game and knowing how some bugs works helps a lot in knowing possibilities, but this map was made for ppl who already know most of those bugs and how they work

That's a bad approach to a puzzle map.
I instantly assumed it was used for the setup.

not necessarily

all other setups aren't like that

it being a '5' makes it look like a symbol that is there for decoration

a normal setup would have only a single blank line at the top for example

or have a blue arrow in entities

Pointing out exactly what to do with a blue arrow isn’t much of a puzzle is it…

neither are setup parts

especially the setup part in question

Okay if you want, instead of a “puzzle” consider this map a challenging map to finish that requires a lot of game knowledge to figure out.

gonna be honest skystrife this is ddnet not terraria i dont wanna open a fuckin wiki to know how to beat a single map

my take on this map, and all the other puzzle maps, is that.. you know how you keep saying you gatekeep bugs away from the devs so they dont fix it? that means they dont know they exist, therefore they dont know how to beat the map. its rather watch a video on how to do it or struggle to figure out how to do anything because the bugs are Fresh and New

when have i ever said that I gatekeep bugs? I have found a gamebreaking exploit and specifically told the devs it and they fixed it, and anytime people ask me about bugs I happily tell them all I know since its fun to share them. Without maps like this people will never know and there will continue to be more and more maps made with skips in them since they dont know things exist

also on this point if you don't like puzzle maps DONT PLAY THEM. there are hundreds and up to thousands of other maps for you to play if you don't like my favorite style of maps. some people like them, not a lot but some, so there should be some puzzle maps(not as much as barren style maps, or hh style maps but still some)

I bet a good part of commuinity watched a lot of tutorials before beating any insane map so if you look for intuitive gameplay insane/high brutal is usually not the place

Show any insane playthrough to a multeasy player and 80% of the stuff will be new to him. I think Cryptic just takes it to another level requiring full game knowledge + brain

My instant reaction was 5 what? Which made me instantly try 5 full jumps and it worked. I think people who enjoy puzzle maps would appreciate it as I also am not a big fan of setup parts. However setup parts with a good hint are fun.

This map doesn't really do new bugs, the vast majority are things I've known about for a while. Although I will admit I don't think many in the community know them. For players like me learning the bugs is tons of fun and even if the community gives hints on them knowing they exist is quite enjoyable.

Sadly not every map on DDNet will appeal to everyone. This map didn't require any looking up for me as I know how to do these things. Things like pseudo flying took tons of people explaining it to me before I could even slightly do it. Does that make pseudo fly maps bad too? Should we only make maps that are easy to see what to do?

In my opinion puzzle maps aren't for everyone, the same thing with gores maps, race maps, pseudo fly maps etc. If DDNet had the mentality that everyone should be able to finish every map then I don't think the insane category would exist.

I just prefer that the game gets a bit more variety in it's map releases, instead of more team 0, barron or edge hook maps. Why not every now and then release a puzzle map for the few players that enjoy it.

no please if we dont get a new brutal/insane team 0 hh,barren or edgehook copy paste map every 3rd day then the game wont be fun anymore,90% of the community surely doesn't stay on multeasymap/kobra every single day where they dont even know the existence of team 0 hh/barren maps that all play and look the same

can we turn this map into multpuzzlemap to fit in with the easily releasable category?

Hi sorry, im gonna have to decline this one, can you please look at some of the newly released maps to see what we are looking for in terms of mapping style and then try and incorporate that into your own map

Too much unfreeze decline

Just put hammerhit filler parts and its rlsed

and some drag parts, eZ

I don't think any words are needed(?)

Additionally your second argument is subjective

look at the f4s, mostly bandwagoners and only a few actual mappers

divide it bt half and yeah sure its accuraye vote

Since when only mappers votes are counted? 💩

Imagine voting because you wanna support the map and play it, kinda cringe

People disagree with me? Clearly just trolls not people who actually disagree.

might wanna permaban the people that don't share our opinion..!

all trolls and bandwagoners have been banned

now press f3 quick

😤

Even if you divide it in half it’s still double the f3’s and are you going to only count actually mappers on the f3s as well or what? Not that any of it matters since 1000 F4s would result in nothing happening

if you get me 1000 f4s ill release the map 😹

1000 troll reactions take it or leave it

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/915000236018130965/1045006812899987456/caption.gif

brb, creating alts for 1000 troll reactions

Error 404 mapper rules not found.

RIP

Also is it just me or new rules prevent any insane map from release now

It looks like this channel has just turned into spam. I think there's nothing left to add to the discussion about this map, so I'm locking it. 🔒