#madrigal
26/49 | Balance: 5/10 • Flow: 7/10 • Creativity: 4/10 • Playability: 6/10 • Fun: 3/5 • Design: 1/3 • Bonus: 0/1 — 9 Votes | Public Result: 0/49 (0 Votes)
DDNet 06/17/2018 7:05 PM
@jao
Rische 06/17/2018 11:02 PM

$rate Balance=4 Flow=8 Creativity=4 Playability=7 Fun=2 Design=2 Bonus=1 Nice Map, but could've easily been twice as long. It's not really well balanced, the first 2-3 drag parts are pretty easy, in the middle of the map is like 1 drag part which is semi hard and the last 2 drag parts are just way harder and since the map is short the increase in difficulty is way to sudden imo. The transition parts are rather easy aswell, so in order to balance it more i would tone down the hard drag parts a bit. i like the design esp. the freeze. Bonus point for the name Madrigal (flyff nice game).

DDNet 06/17/2018 11:02 PM

Something wrong in the given arguments (e.g. wrong category, too many spaces, rating out of range)

Rische 06/17/2018 11:03 PM

$rate Balance=4 Flow=8 Creativity=4 Playability=7 Fun=2 Design=2 Bonus=1

jao 06/17/2018 11:03 PM

what was wrong? 😮

Rische 06/17/2018 11:03 PM

i dont know, maybe because it wasnt a seperate message?

jao 06/17/2018 11:04 PM

ahh

jao 06/17/2018 11:04 PM

well it worked first time, but it thought the text are votes too 😄

Rische 06/17/2018 11:05 PM

ah

jao 06/17/2018 11:05 PM

hence both reactions xd

Rische 06/17/2018 11:05 PM

i have 6 screenshots, should i post them here i feel like it would spam

Rische 06/17/2018 11:05 PM

the channel

jao 06/17/2018 11:06 PM

you could upload them somewhere else

jao 06/17/2018 11:06 PM

and then link it here

Rische 06/17/2018 11:07 PM

any prefered website?

jao 06/17/2018 11:08 PM

what's most convenient for you I guess

Rische 06/17/2018 11:11 PM
  1. https://ibb.co/da34vJ

left part is too faily, maybe add tele there or change the part a bit. marked hookthrough should be removed, its ironic that the left part is super faily and on that part u can miss the hammer and the hook and still recover because of that ht. It's not obvious that u can do the part without jumping

jao 06/17/2018 11:12 PM

oh

jao 06/17/2018 11:12 PM

put < > around the link

Rische 06/17/2018 11:15 PM
  1. https://ibb.co/nqLnhy

would be annoying to fail there, either remove some freeze so u can save him whereever he is or just remove the part since its useless anyways i guess

Rische 06/17/2018 11:17 PM
  1. https://ibb.co/b9bchy

unfreeze with hammer + rifle (cheat)

Rische 06/17/2018 11:19 PM
  1. https://ibb.co/bsPr9d

to hard imo, u come with speed from right side and have to hit a pretty slim time window to hook there, maybe remove the blocks so its not an edgehook or move it more >

Rische 06/17/2018 11:20 PM
Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:18 PM

Balance is for 2 things right ? playtime between player and balance difficulty between part ?

jao 06/18/2018 1:20 PM

I‘d say so

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:24 PM

$rate balance=6 flow=8 creativity=5 playbility=7 fun=2 design=2

DDNet 06/18/2018 1:24 PM

Something wrong in the given arguments (e.g. wrong category, too many spaces, rating out of range)

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:24 PM

wut

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:25 PM

u have to caps ?

jao 06/18/2018 1:33 PM

typo in playability

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:33 PM

$rate playability=7

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:34 PM

pretty good map

Amu~Cookie 06/18/2018 1:35 PM

I agree on all the Point lexin made

Kicker 06/18/2018 4:15 PM

$rate balance=4 flow=7 creativity=6 playability=6 fun=1 design=1

Kicker 06/18/2018 4:15 PM

Agreed with lexin screenshots

Shawn. 06/18/2018 5:57 PM

$rate balance=3 flow=6 creativity=5 playability=7 fun=2 design=1 bonus=0

snail 06/20/2018 7:05 PM

$rate balance=5 flow=8 creativity=6 playability=7 fun=2 design=2 bonus=0

Ryozuki 06/20/2018 7:06 PM

i like the background design but the frontend looks bad

Ryozuki 06/20/2018 7:06 PM

$rate design=1

Ryozuki 06/20/2018 7:08 PM

$rate fun=1 flow=7 balance=3

Ryozuki 06/20/2018 7:09 PM

$rate creativity=4

Ryozuki 06/20/2018 7:10 PM
@jao

is there a default value if you dont pass it with $rate ? If so what is it? 5 ? 0?

Rische 06/20/2018 7:10 PM

its non existent then

jao 06/20/2018 7:11 PM

y

Freezestyler 06/20/2018 8:05 PM

$rate balance=4 flow=5 creativity=3 playability=6 fun=1 design=1 bonus=0

Brokecdx- 06/21/2018 4:50 PM

$rate balance=6 flow=7 creativity=4 playability=6 fun=1 design=2 bonus=0

Brokecdx- 06/21/2018 4:51 PM

tp8 part (triple edge) needs to be changed. (hookthrough edge to be exact)

snail 06/21/2018 5:31 PM

agreed

jao 06/22/2018 1:57 AM

$rate balance=4 creativity=2 playability=3 fun=0 design=0 bonus=0

jao 06/22/2018 1:58 AM

$rate balance=5

jao 06/22/2018 2:00 AM

don't see creativity, multiple times same edges, basic tunnel gores all over the place, reusing same part elements over and over. I guess the part after tele 1 is more complex and thought through which justifies the 2 points.

jao 06/22/2018 2:04 AM

playability low points mainly because he wasn't able to make this map playable for groups. these parts are all perfectly fine for team 0, but cause he mapped everything so tight it just doesn't work -> big flaw. also stuff like weird faily things (faily 6 tile edge) and really long drag parts. would also count something like the laser which is only used for two really simple shots into this.

jao 06/22/2018 2:05 AM

fun 0 cause it is a 2p faily map that offers standard gameplay only (aka you might try it once or twice and then move on) + I don't like it personally

jao 06/22/2018 2:06 AM

I can understand that people like the shiny background, but that doesn't make the design worth a point for me

jao 06/22/2018 2:06 AM

and flow I'm not sure, so no vote

jao 06/22/2018 2:09 AM

will wait till tomorrow with the announcement if anyone wants to give their opinion on my ratings

jao 06/22/2018 2:11 AM

technically the map violates the mapper rules with this lazy 2p-force-fix btw

snail 06/22/2018 7:36 AM

the faily 6 edge was awkward but its part so it doesnt matter that much

snail 06/22/2018 7:38 AM

as for the 2p rule idk, ultimately its his choice if he wants it to have team only so that people cant cheat parts with big groups.. "shouldnt be an excuse to map tight stuff" yes but i dont think we should force "team 0 maps" if the mapper doesnt want it

jao 06/22/2018 11:53 AM

why? that encourages mappers to be lazy, I don't think we want that

Amu~Cookie 06/22/2018 11:39 PM

$rate bonus=0

Brokecdx- 06/23/2018 12:01 AM

The map is nice for my record but as I said tp8 has to be changed imo

Freezestyler 06/23/2018 1:21 PM

$rate flow=4 playability=5

jao 06/23/2018 2:52 PM

"added a bit hookthrough to the edges"

jao 06/23/2018 2:52 PM

^ seems like he some stuff

snail 06/23/2018 3:07 PM

$rate balance=6

jao 06/23/2018 7:12 PM
@Slayzn
Slayzn 06/23/2018 7:16 PM

and now

Slayzn 06/23/2018 7:50 PM

idk if it to easy with the hookthrough now

Persus 06/23/2018 8:32 PM

yes the laser part is way to easy now. Rico and me think its now an always first try part. the other part you added hooktrough seems to fit good imo.

Slayzn 06/23/2018 11:05 PM

But idk how to fix the laser part

Slayzn 06/23/2018 11:05 PM

i think its to easy too but idk

Brokecdx- 06/23/2018 11:05 PM

got time? follow me ingame

Slayzn 06/23/2018 11:06 PM

not now sry

Slayzn 06/23/2018 11:06 PM

can u make screenshot or show me tomorrow

Brokecdx- 06/23/2018 11:07 PM

ok

Kicker 06/24/2018 7:58 AM

$rate bonus=0

jao 06/25/2018 3:29 PM

so

@Slayzn

rating-wise it’s on the edge but still enough for release (also considering that it doesn’t include ur fixes), but you should really remove the team restriction unless there is a good reason for it which I don’t see. It probably just requires to rework the first part, or to add a new team 0 friendly start before it. If there are other problematic places, they are probably adjustable with minor changes.

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:09 PM

its a short map, why it should play able in team 0?

jao 06/25/2018 6:11 PM

why not? why does the length matter?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:18 PM

i want it 2player forced

jao 06/25/2018 6:19 PM

why?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:20 PM

i dont want that my parts are played in a big team

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:20 PM

so its make a brutal part to a novice part if u play it with 4 people

jao 06/25/2018 6:22 PM

meh that's just really selfish

jao 06/25/2018 6:22 PM

and it's not like every part is super cheatable with more players

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:24 PM

it its

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:24 PM

it is/

Rische 06/25/2018 6:25 PM

well, he wants the map to be competitive

Rische 06/25/2018 6:26 PM

personally i wouldnt mind either way, but jao is kinda right, there is no need for that map to have teamforce

jao 06/25/2018 6:26 PM

you will still have speedrun competitiveness tho

Rische 06/25/2018 6:26 PM

not as much

jao 06/25/2018 6:27 PM

why not

jao 06/25/2018 6:28 PM

if someone wants to speedrun it, they can still do it. it's not like because it can be played in team 0, people stop to speedrun it

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:30 PM

so novice player are able to finish this map

jao 06/25/2018 6:32 PM

what's so bad about excluding players from finishing your map

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:33 PM

because team 0 make it to easy

Ravie 06/25/2018 6:35 PM

Add solo parts that don't let noobs through

jao 06/25/2018 6:35 PM

it's part of the game that playing in bigger groups makes finishing maps easier. the map is no super competitive insane map where finishes would have no value cause people could play in 20+ teams

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:36 PM

sure but i think team 0 maps are like back in time, or stronghold

Ravie 06/25/2018 6:36 PM

"20+ teams" I see what you're referencing 😝

jao 06/25/2018 6:37 PM

that's not only relevant to maps specially made for big teams

jao 06/25/2018 6:37 PM

your map is a very normal map, it's nothing special where team 0 would have a huge negative effect

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:40 PM

so u say the map will only released when i remove this?

jao 06/25/2018 6:46 PM

well it's against our rules

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:48 PM

u can delete the command for teamforced

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:48 PM

but i dont fix the map for bigger teams

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:49 PM

its your choice

Slayzn 06/25/2018 6:52 PM

or just change the rule for 2min?

jao 06/25/2018 7:00 PM

xd

jao 06/25/2018 7:01 PM

well it’s there for a reason, and idk, it should also be in your favor to improve the map

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:02 PM

the map is good with teamforced

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:02 PM

and i dont fix the whole map because u are fan of team 0

jao 06/25/2018 7:03 PM

it’s not the whole map, mainly the start

jao 06/25/2018 7:04 PM

if there are other issues they should be minor and easy to adjust

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:05 PM

i dont fix the start

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:05 PM

i mapped the start because the map should be teamforced

jao 06/25/2018 7:06 PM

so you see that it’s bad without teamforce

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:06 PM

ye

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:07 PM

i dont make it teamforced because i saw oh there are not so much place for bigger teams

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:07 PM

i mapped tight because i want teamforced

jao 06/25/2018 7:08 PM

wat? if you teamforce it with a server setting anyways, why do you want to "force" it with a mapping style

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:08 PM

why should a teamforced map with space for 30 tees?

jao 06/25/2018 7:09 PM

ah misunderstood

jao 06/25/2018 7:10 PM

why you don’t wanna change it tho

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:10 PM

i want a teamforced map

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:10 PM

this is the reason i mapped this

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:11 PM

so u can release it

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:11 PM

u can delete the teamforce command and release it

jao 06/25/2018 7:12 PM

and what’s the logic behind that?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:13 PM

idk u want to delete the teamforce command

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:14 PM

and i dont fix it for bigger teams

jao 06/25/2018 7:14 PM

meh

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:15 PM

i think its a good teamforced map

worstwish 06/25/2018 7:15 PM

pls no conversations here

jao 06/25/2018 7:16 PM

what makes it a good teamforced map ?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

there a good parts

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

u have to do it without help

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

and not with 4 tees on one part

jao 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

that is like in every other map

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

thats not brutal

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

yes

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:17 PM

but i dont want that my parts are played by 4 tees

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:18 PM

and there are many maps with teamforced

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:18 PM

so

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:18 PM

release a tight bad map for team 0

jao 06/25/2018 7:18 PM

but usually they have a reason for it

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:18 PM

or release a good teamforced map

jao 06/25/2018 7:19 PM

what is so good about it then in your opinion

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:19 PM

a have a reason too

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:20 PM

i map a brutal part with 3 edges

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:20 PM

its a brutal part

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:20 PM

with 4 ppl this part dont need any edge hook

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:21 PM

its good with teamforced

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:22 PM

in team 0 this map is shit

jao 06/25/2018 7:22 PM

well it’s part of the game, as I already said

jao 06/25/2018 7:22 PM

and it’s not really a bad thing to allow players to play together imo

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:22 PM

there are many good maps to play in team 0

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:23 PM

you can play together

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:23 PM

its not a solo map

jao 06/25/2018 7:24 PM

btw looking at the ratings, the map is not really that good, it’s barely above the line. if you don’t wanna improve it at all, I don’t think we can release it

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:24 PM

than delete this

Rische 06/25/2018 7:24 PM

obviously after he changed the map the ratings would probabl be higher

Rische 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

and 26 isnt even a bad rating

Bumm 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

he has 26

Bumm 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

he need 25

Bumm 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

where is the problem

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

the problem is that jao dont like teamforced maps

jao 06/25/2018 7:25 PM

ye thats an average score, good would be something higher 😛

snail 06/25/2018 7:26 PM

tbh i dont see why u wanna enforce that rule so hard

snail 06/25/2018 7:26 PM

its like "add 1 random switch part if u want ur map to be teamforced"

snail 06/25/2018 7:26 PM

why cant it be his decision

snail 06/25/2018 7:26 PM

then he adds a random shit switch part and its legit to be teamforced?

jao 06/25/2018 7:26 PM

wat? it’s never about single parts

snail 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

then he adds 2

snail 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

where do u draw the line

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

Jao can change the rule every time

jao 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

u look at the map as a whole

jao 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

not at single parts

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

There is just no reason to make it teamforcred lol

snail 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

its his decision

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

i said u can delete the teamforced command

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:27 PM

but i dont fix the map for bigger teams

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

so when u say the map is to tight for team 0

jao 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

well yeah it’s also his decision to map bugs, doesn’t mean we have to release it with those

snail 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

what

snail 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

the bugs are obviously unwanted

snail 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

unlike the teamforce

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

Then some people will need to Change their playability Rating and the map will be under 25 xD

Bumm 06/25/2018 7:28 PM

teamforce isn't a bug

jao 06/25/2018 7:29 PM

and teamforce on maps that don’t require it is also unwanted by us

snail 06/25/2018 7:29 PM

why?

snail 06/25/2018 7:29 PM

if that what he wants

Rische 06/25/2018 7:29 PM

the map kinda requires it as u stated tht he needs to make the parts t0 comfortable

jao 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

cause it’s part of the game that maps can be played in bigger groups, we want people to play together, not exclude them because of ignorant mappers

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

"team 0 is part of the gaem" so is teamforce, both options are available so why isnt teamforce "part of the game" aswell

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

or do u define soloely what is "part of the game"

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

and it is a part of the game that map are teamforced lol

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

5 years ago there was no team at all

Rische 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

teamforce = more competitive

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

he has the option to choose between teamforcing or not

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

both are part of the game

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

You shouldn't make teamforce an excuse for Bad/lazy mapping

jao 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

teamforce on maps that don’t require it is not part of the game

snail 06/25/2018 7:30 PM

he specifically stated that he wants to teamforce because he doesnt want people to "cheat" his part

snail 06/25/2018 7:31 PM

that has nothing to do with lazy mapping

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:31 PM

why bad mapping? i said i mapped it because i want to teamforced it

snail 06/25/2018 7:31 PM

so u decide urself what is "part of the game?"

jao 06/25/2018 7:31 PM

that’s just ignorant, nothing we should encourage

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:31 PM

i dont add teamforced because i saw the map is tight at start

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:33 PM

want to move that discussion somewhere where more people can discuss? 🙂

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:36 PM

(maybe more people have an opinion on what maps ddnet wants to release or not; I would, but I don't see why I should be more privileged to comment on that than any other tw player, I usually don't have any involvement in the map release process)

jao 06/25/2018 7:37 PM

the map is (largely) the same with and without teamforce, it only changes the amount of people who can play it

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:38 PM

no

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:38 PM

u said that i have to fix it for bigger teams

jao 06/25/2018 7:38 PM

and if people are interested in discussing what maps are released, here is the right place not anywhere else

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:38 PM

it not the same lol

jao 06/25/2018 7:38 PM

I said largely the same

jao 06/25/2018 7:39 PM

you don’t need to fix every single part

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:39 PM

mh. I figured maybe players who aren't into mapping might still have an idea whether they like teamforced maps or not

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:39 PM

Just ask tropi and stormphönix

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:39 PM

both said it should be teamforced

jao 06/25/2018 7:40 PM

for what reason?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:40 PM

if u want i can ask more

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:40 PM

[I wasn't talking about this particular map, but about maps in general,

@Slayzn

]

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:40 PM
@heinrich5991

i know

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:41 PM
@heinrich5991

i got this discusse every time i want a release

jao 06/25/2018 7:41 PM
@StorмPʜöɴix

for what reason should it be teamforced?

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:42 PM

why u dont make a poll for every map to release

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

so u see what the players really want

jao 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

that’s what we do

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

where is the poll

jao 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

people can give their votes about maps in the channels

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

oh, is this section open to anyone who wants,

@jao

?

jao 06/25/2018 7:43 PM

read

#📌info

for more info

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:44 PM

but this channel is closed

jao 06/25/2018 7:44 PM
@heinrich5991

sure

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:44 PM

okay

snail 06/25/2018 7:44 PM
@heinrich5991

not by default tho

jao 06/25/2018 7:44 PM

closed by default, but everyone can join

snail 06/25/2018 7:44 PM

they have to opt in

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:44 PM

then: as a (probably not so skilled) player, I really don't like maps with forced teams at all

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:45 PM

I think it kinda goes against the spirit of ddnet, if people want to play competitively, they can use teams

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:45 PM

I think it was a mistake to introduce this feature

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:45 PM

a big argument to teamforce a map is to disallow "teamworking" drag parts

jao 06/25/2018 7:45 PM

that’s what I‘m talking about all the time

@heinrich5991

^^

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:46 PM

but why? can't you let people have fun?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:46 PM

if people want to do it their way, then just let them

snail 06/25/2018 7:46 PM

yes but now this feature is there, so when mappers want to use it why should we force them not to?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:46 PM

you can have competitive play in teams

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:46 PM
@snail

because we precisely have the ability to curate away features we don't like

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:47 PM
@snail

if you use that argument, I could make sure, in code, that this feature isn't used for new maps – the technical part isn't really an argument IMO

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:47 PM

A finish is a finish and some people (cough) don't mind waiting a few hours in team 0 to be saved just to get the points and never play the map the way it's intended to be played

jao 06/25/2018 7:47 PM

point system has no big meaning anyways so you can’t consider that

snail 06/25/2018 7:47 PM

i wasnt rly talking about the technical part

@heinrich5991

, some people also like it

jao 06/25/2018 7:47 PM

(finishing with different names etc)

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:48 PM
@snail

players? or mappers?

snail 06/25/2018 7:48 PM

both

snail 06/25/2018 7:48 PM

i.e

@Slayzn

wants it there and quoted 2 players agreeing with him

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:48 PM

the point system is in many cases other player's way to judge your skill

Rische 06/25/2018 7:48 PM

team force makes it more achieveving and competitive

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:48 PM

I don't think we should condone that,

@Ravie
heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:48 PM
@Rische

can't you have competitiveness in /team?

jao 06/25/2018 7:49 PM

then we would have to teamforce every map now lol, if we want the point system to have some value

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:49 PM

I think a team 0 finish should give say for example half the points you would get with a "legit" finish

snail 06/25/2018 7:49 PM

he wants players to play the way his parts are intended since it's mostly a "drag-parts" map and not created with big groups in mind, why should we force him not to have that

Rische 06/25/2018 7:49 PM

i agree

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:49 PM
@snail

one example reason would be (whether you agree with the reason or not): because we want to discourage that feature

snail 06/25/2018 7:50 PM

i think its rly lame to tell somebody that he mapped 2 players parts and that he has to watch people "cheating" them with big groups, when he didnt even want to allow it

Rische 06/25/2018 7:50 PM

why would we want that, insane srv should have that feature on every map

snail 06/25/2018 7:50 PM

but why would we want to discourage it

@heinrich5991
heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

because it destroys the ddrace play I like – randomly, in team 0, players playing together 🙂

snail 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

thats subjective

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

some maps (for example binary) have parts that are extremely difficult but would be very easy to do or even skip large parts with having a second tee waiting in another place ready to hook

Rische 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

yes, but madrigal is not a map for that

jao 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

he can choose to not have it released if it’s so painful

snail 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

then u would also disable team at all

snail 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

some maps are just not meant for that kind of play

@heinrich5991
snail 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

and these maps should have features supporting it (i.e team, teamforce)

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

meh

Rische 06/25/2018 7:51 PM

why is binary teamforced then, yeah

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:52 PM

there are many maps teamforced they are able to play in team 0

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:52 PM

I think this map is somewhat that way as well, I support team forcing it

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:52 PM

binary consists only drag parts or solo parts, this map also got transitions

Slayzn 06/25/2018 7:53 PM

team 0 turns a brutal map in a moderate or novice map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:53 PM
@snail

there are competitive players and there are players playing for fun – teams already allow people to go their own way (some people even consider these a mistake, as they allow excluding people), team 0 allows people playing for fun

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:53 PM

if you force teams, then you exclude the second kind of people

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

apparently to not give points to the players playing "just for fun", because the points are some kind of measure you like

snail 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

yes but as ive said some maps are not meant / thought for group play

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

who is hurt by allowing team 0?

snail 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

the mapper

Rische 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

wouldbe just a blocker festival

snail 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

and yes

snail 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

the map isnt fit for team 0

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

people who play the map in a team but get the same reward as team 0 noobs

snail 06/25/2018 7:54 PM

he wants his maps points to be valued

snail 06/25/2018 7:55 PM

by making it more competitive

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:55 PM

you mean more exclusive for finishing,

@snail

?

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:55 PM

amol wanted that on 4u too, turned out great

snail 06/25/2018 7:55 PM

ppl playing for fun wont care much for point sso they will just move to another map if they rly dont want to play in team

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:55 PM
@Ravie

the point system isn't ment as a reward or anything – it's ment as a way to encourage players to continue playing

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:55 PM

I don't even think it's about competitiveness, he just wants to disallow cheating drag parts the way I explained earlier

snail 06/25/2018 7:55 PM
@heinrich5991

its kinda like arguing that people playing for fun dont like really hard maps so we shouldnt release insane maps because it excludes them

jao 06/25/2018 7:56 PM

ye lol on 4u you argued against it

@snail
snail 06/25/2018 7:56 PM

when you play "for fun" and "casually" you exclude yourself from certain maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:56 PM
@snail

you can make hard maps without forcing team

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:56 PM

I don't like adding artificial features (not on the map) that make it harder

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

playing in team is the same amount of 'fun' or even more depending on the person

snail 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

yes but it wont be smooth, and if mapper wants it to be more competitive why should we force him not to

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

why is it not competitive?

snail 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

because people will cheat every part

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

the only thing missing, I think, is that people will get points for playing in team 0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

but why. why is that a problem?

snail 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

because u can finish the map while not doing anything

snail 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

he wants his map to be competitive and have valued finishes

snail 06/25/2018 7:57 PM

so that sounds like a problem

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 7:58 PM

if people want to play the map in team they still can

Ravie 06/25/2018 7:59 PM

no matter how points were intended, many people do gather points competitively and allowing an easier way to do that is just not good imo

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:59 PM

why?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 7:59 PM

it gives a way to tell these people: see, they weren't intended that way

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

and maybe people will care less about these points…

jao 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

if you want points to have a value every map from now on has to be teamforced

jao 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

this one map won’t make a difference

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

or make a handicapped point system for team 0 finishes

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

there is a point system for team ranks

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:00 PM

IIRC

snail 06/25/2018 8:01 PM

(that nobody cares about)

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:01 PM

a lot do lol

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:01 PM

well, then that's their problem (?)

jao 06/25/2018 8:01 PM

won’t happen anyways unless points are reseted

snail 06/25/2018 8:01 PM

i still dont see why cant it be his choice considering the map is ~brutal 3

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:02 PM

why does the difficulty of the map make a difference?

snail 06/25/2018 8:02 PM

because "for fun players" are obviously aimed by easier maps

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:02 PM

thats not true

jao 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

because it’s our ddnet mission to make people play together, and it’s a rule, so that would have to be removed first of all

snail 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

the harder the map is the more "competitive" it gets by default

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

nah. I also play brutal 1* as a not so skilled player

snail 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

and teamforce just ensures it stays competitive

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

I know other people, who aren't pros either, but more skilled than me, who like to play in team 0 too

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:03 PM

e.g. deen 😉

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

why cant you just learn out of your mistakes 4u

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

ye

@heinrich5991

but why does that mean 100% of our maps have to fit these players

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:04 PM
@snail

what do you mean by "stay competitive"?

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

i dont even knwo what ur talking abotu with 4u, i havent even tested the map

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM
@heinrich5991

every finish is more valued

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

more deserved kinda

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:04 PM
@snail

i.e. you're talking about the point system?

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

not rly

snail 06/25/2018 8:04 PM

just the finish

snail 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

idc about points or anytihng

snail 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

just people finishing

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

but you can see that the finishes are not in team

snail 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

i.e it will have 50 finishes within a month vs 200 if it was for team 0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

that's why we have /teamrank

snail 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

thats kinda irrelevant

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:05 PM

why?

worstwish 06/25/2018 8:06 PM

pls no conversations here

snail 06/25/2018 8:06 PM

because the point is he doesnt want people to finish his map if he feels they dont deserve it

snail 06/25/2018 8:06 PM

its not about counting the amount of team finish

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

Just to put it short team 0 is allowing an easier way, a way that the mapper did not intend the map to be played, and why should he be forced to allow people to play the map a different way than he intended?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

why does the mapper get to decide the way people play this map?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

especially whether they can play in team 0 or not?

snail 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

because thats his map and he mapped it with this in mind o.O

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

because he made the map 🤦

snail 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

why should WE force the mapper to decide how HIS map is played

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:07 PM

because we host the map and want all of them to provide a fun experience

snail 06/25/2018 8:08 PM

we can ensure global rules and stuff but when we create a feature to then tell the mapper to fuck off for using it, thats just unfair

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:08 PM
@snail

no. that's the point of curation

jao 06/25/2018 8:08 PM

why should we test maps, why do we not release anything cause mappers want it like the way they made it?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:08 PM
@snail

that feature dates back to 2010, we certainly didn't create it, btw

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:09 PM

that's also why we should not allow time-modifying tiles on maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:09 PM

we have two maps using that feature

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:09 PM

but I don't think we should accept more, other than for very good reasons

snail 06/25/2018 8:09 PM

well the teamforce feature is literally required for some maps anyway, and also makes sense for people wanting competitive maps

snail 06/25/2018 8:10 PM

i still dont see why cant we have more competitive maps with teamforce

snail 06/25/2018 8:10 PM

like how is that a bad thing

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:10 PM

you restrict how players can play the map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:10 PM

especially at a (in my opinion) core point of ddrace: collaboration

snail 06/25/2018 8:10 PM

and why is that bad

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

because we like players playing together

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

and team 0 enabled maps encourage that

snail 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

we like players having fun

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

alright if we don't allow teamforced maps anymore, then why don't we enable team 0 on solo maps and hammerfly them all

RayB. 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

ure speaking for urself heinrich, u sound pretty dumb arguing

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

yes, I'm telling you my opinon

RayB. 06/25/2018 8:11 PM

2019 DDnet will decide what kind of map a mapper has to make in order to get it released when its up to u

snail 06/25/2018 8:12 PM

look just right there

@heinrich5991

, there are many ppl thinking it should be teamforced

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:12 PM
@RayB.

sounds like nothing has changed. ddnet has always had rules for its maps IIRC

snail 06/25/2018 8:12 PM

which kinda shows that more than just 1 guy thinks its worthy to have more competitive maps

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:12 PM

btw you saying "we like players to play together in team 0" is exactly the same as a mapper saying "I want only 2 people to be able to play the map at once"

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:12 PM

why?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

we have many players, but fewer mappers

RayB. 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

U are still talkin for urself

RayB. 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

Many players wont agree with u

RayB. 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

in this point

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

I was referring to admins etc, you telling people to play together in team 0 is exactly the same as using teamforce in maps

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

I agree with

@heinrich5991
heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

I think players should be a higher priority than mappers wishes

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:13 PM
@Ravie

no, you can still play in team if you want

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:13 PM

we don't force people to play in team0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:14 PM

we allow it

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:16 PM

I think the mapper should decide how he intends his maps to be played, since there is already a feature to do it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:16 PM

I don't think the presence of a feature should dictate that

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:16 PM

we have features that we don't want maps to use, e.g. time-modifying tiles

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:17 PM

the presence of a feature means it's meant to be used

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:17 PM

you also dont want deepfly on some maps

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:17 PM

so you disable it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:17 PM

I don't think we should use time-modifying tiles, because they're actively annoying on normal maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:17 PM

time gets less of a meaning that way

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:18 PM

this is an example for why I think that features existing is not an argument for "it should be used"

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:18 PM

they can still be used as a sort of points like in the flappy bird map, otherwise I have never had any use for them nor have I seen anyone use them

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:18 PM

also, that the feature is there since 2010, we just inherited it

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:18 PM

then why wasnt it removed if you don't want it to be used?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

"Mind for your time" or so. I don't like it

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

well then we had 8 years to remove it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

because older maps use it

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

newer maps also do

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

cf binary

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM
@snail

ok. I can make a PR. that's not an argument

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

and many insane maps

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

no that would be bad

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

some maps REQUIRE it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

then don't use that as an argument? ^^

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

wrt. that feature existing

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

and also why would we want to completely get rid of the possibility to make maps competitive?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

"competitive" = "not being able to play in team 0"

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

then it could have only been enabled on such 'older maps', ddnet has skilled developers so if there was a need to it would have been done long ago

snail 06/25/2018 8:19 PM

yes

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

because a finish is a deserved one

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

and the /teamrank thing doesnt change anything

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

why?

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

because most people dont care for that they just see X has a finish

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

or X has point

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

and also most people just type /rank XXXX

snail 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

u can be rank 1 team 0 even if u never did any part

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

then create a website where you can see whether you have a team rank

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:20 PM

or a chat command

snail 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

i dont think its nice for somebody who dedicated hours into finishing the map in team the intended way, to see undeserving players going around with a finish on a rly hard map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

just because people don't use it that way today shouldn't be a reason to restrict players from playing in team 0

snail 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

and maybe with even higher rank than him

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

then let's create a way to make team finishes more visible?

snail 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

it doesnt change the problem

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

why not?

snail 06/25/2018 8:21 PM

if i dedicate 10 hours into finishing the map the intended way, i wouldnt be happy to see noobs finishing it within 1 hour of playing with 20 tees

snail 06/25/2018 8:22 PM

and thats why i brought up the map difficulty, the harder the map is the more "competitive" it is

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:23 PM

Also I don't like seeing stuff such as "why should the mapper decide how people play his map is we host it" it can take many,many hours and effort to make a good map so you should at least get the "privilege" to decide if people can use team 0 or not

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:23 PM

can we get rid of the word "competitive"? it seems like it's used as equivalent to "not being able to play in team 0" or as "this map is hard"

snail 06/25/2018 8:24 PM

competitive = competitive

snail 06/25/2018 8:24 PM

i know u dont like that mindset but its there

snail 06/25/2018 8:24 PM

and many players like that aspect

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:24 PM

we have different definitions of that, hence it might be good to avoid that word – you think a map can't be competitive when it can be played in team 0, I think that's not true, it can be as competitive as without, as the only competitive score is /teamrank anyway

snail 06/25/2018 8:25 PM

u dont want to exclude "for fun players", then why should we exclude ""competitive"" ones by forcing maps meant for them to be casual

jao 06/25/2018 8:26 PM

so the problem is that /teamrank isn’t the go to command and not that the map can be played in team 0

snail 06/25/2018 8:26 PM

no

snail 06/25/2018 8:26 PM

thats a part of the problem

jao 06/25/2018 8:26 PM

you are addressing the wrong issue

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:26 PM
@snail

we're not excluding them. in fact, we have features specifically built for them

snail 06/25/2018 8:26 PM

but that wouldnt change the fact that he wants deserving people to finish his map

snail 06/25/2018 8:27 PM

we are not excluding them but we are ruining a part of their fun

snail 06/25/2018 8:27 PM

it feels much more rewarding to finish a map that has 2 finishes than one that has 20 finishes...

Freezestyler 06/25/2018 8:27 PM

if you only want deserving people to finish maps you should start with an account system

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:27 PM

then maybe we could add ways to make it feel more rewarding

jao 06/25/2018 8:27 PM

why are you, as a competitive player, compering yourself to casual players? that’s not logical

snail 06/25/2018 8:28 PM

ye

@Freezestyler

, spam

@Learath2
heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:28 PM
@snail

e.g. displaying "only XY players have finished this map in team before, good job!"

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:28 PM

when you finish

jao 06/25/2018 8:29 PM

you look at it from a limited perspective, if you are for competitivness, compare with team ranks, why would you even care about team 0 ranks?

snail 06/25/2018 8:29 PM
snail 06/25/2018 8:29 PM

because exactly that?

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:29 PM

because as it is now a team 0 rank has just as much value

snail 06/25/2018 8:29 PM

how is that a limited perspective

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:30 PM
@Ravie

that's just the value you assign to it… it's displayed at a different place

snail 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

u get same amount of points, u both go around on server wiht a rank and a time next to ur name

jao 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

is there no teamfinish amount that you can look up?

jao 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

points has no value, that can't be a thing to consider

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:30 PM
@snail

you already get things that other players do not, but you want to restrict what other players get at all?

snail 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

thats honestly theoritical bullshit, literally nobody cares about it

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

points do have value to players whether you like it or not

snail 06/25/2018 8:30 PM

when 2 players finish a map, 1 teamfinish, 1 Team 0 they both get the same perks

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

This map as it current form should be teamforce, its just too tight for a few more player, also the parts are too easy chatable that way

snail 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

nobody cares that u have a special line that shows its a team finish

jao 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

the team 0 players don't get a teamrank

snail 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

yes that nobody cares about

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

one person gets a team rank, the other does not. other differences can be created

snail 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

pls

jao 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

ofc that matters if you are about competivity

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

you want to get non-competitive players to care about competitiveness?

snail 06/25/2018 8:31 PM

not rly because the other guy has almost everything same as u do

jao 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

it's normal that people look at teamranks and if they see that you played with more people they value it less by default

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

I dont really get this discussion. this map is clearly a map you wouldnt vote for playing in a bigger group

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

teamforce would not have to be a thing and this whole problem could be solved if team finishes got you more points

jao 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

why?

jao 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

I don't see it that clearly

jao 06/25/2018 8:32 PM

besides the first part being tight

jao 06/25/2018 8:33 PM
@Ravie

that can easily be abused, causes confusion and is hard to define correctly

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:33 PM
@Ravie

you could create a feature where people can see how many points you got by finishing in teams

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:33 PM

but then let's do it that way

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:33 PM

and not on a map-by-map basis

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:34 PM

but then you have the same exact amount of points only it displays that some of them are from team finishes, wooh big deal

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:34 PM

why do you feel the need to be displayed as "better" as other players if that can be part of the community that cares for compettitiveness?

jao 06/25/2018 8:35 PM

but that's what you all about, you want to have something that shows you are "competitive"

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:35 PM

there is really no clear line between 'causal' and 'competitive' players

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:35 PM

if people care about this, they will – but if they don't, why do you want to force them?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:36 PM

welcome

@Learath2
Learath2 06/25/2018 8:36 PM

spamming me sadly won't gimme more free time

@snail

😃

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:36 PM

alright, took a look on the map again. And yeah you could play it with some more tees, but i dont see the reason to do that. You cant really teamwork on some parts, and on others you skip them completly. Also for its lengh i dont see a reason why it shouldnt* be teamforce, if the mapper wants it this way

jao 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

play with more tees because you have more than 1 friend that you like to play with

jao 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

and you don't like to exlcude friends

jao 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

and you also don't like to miss out on a map

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

maybe design the point system in a way that rewards people who play in teams more?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

team 0 allows you to join even if the team has slightly started already

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:37 PM

yes it's all about fun and friendship and unicorns

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:38 PM

there are some more maps out there who use teamforce, who could be played with some more tees. Still i dont see how thats bad. There are tons of maps you can play with your friends

jao 06/25/2018 8:38 PM

what maps for example?

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:38 PM

it's all about fun

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:39 PM

Winter is comming

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:40 PM

competitive play is also for fun, some people even play rage maps for fun

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:40 PM

but i dont see how an example is important here

jao 06/25/2018 8:40 PM

meh that's a really old map

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:40 PM

and i dont get why every map should be able to carry team0

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

I don't see the fun for team 0 players in a map with team force

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

because it's not meant for team 0 players

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

i mean you can talk with the mapper if he wants to change it, but if he doesnt and its fine - i dont see the problem

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

I see no problem in this map

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

yes it's tight

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:41 PM

but no problem lol

jao 06/25/2018 8:42 PM

it's really only the start that's an issue

snail 06/25/2018 8:43 PM
@Learath2

((

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:43 PM
@Ravie

but why do you want to restrict them? you say it's to stop people from finishing the map, but they're still stopped from getting teamranks. if you don't like those, maybe we should address that instead of taking away a possibility that some players appreciate

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:44 PM

the mapper told me that he really wouldnt like to change it to team0. Are we ignoring that completly?

jao 06/25/2018 8:44 PM

the mapper is ignoring us completey 👺

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:44 PM

it's just about that if a map has teamforce it is not meant to be played in team 0, eg not optimised to be played with multiple tees: cheatable drag parts, tight sections etc. if the mapper had team 0 in mind since the very beginning of making the map it would not be this way

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:44 PM

having a thousand people sometimes makes parts easier then intended, which decreases the difficulty rating of the map without decreasing the reward for it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:45 PM
@StorмPʜöɴix

I (personally) want to consider players a higher priority than mappers – thus, yes, I'm giving a lower priority to the opinion of the mapper

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:46 PM

in that situation i would say it the other way around, because it doesnt matter. There will be people happy about it

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:46 PM

if you lower a map's difficulty because it's easier in team 0 the team guys will still have to play the map at it's "full" difficulty and get less reward than they deserve

jao 06/25/2018 8:46 PM

obviously mapper's opinion is what matters most, but on the other hand, it's kinda stupid if they are ignorant about everything

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 8:46 PM

and people not

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:46 PM

So introducing a new points system might not be a bad idea, we could reward teamfinishes more

snail 06/25/2018 8:47 PM
@heinrich5991

thats not really fair, obviously players are the highest priority but its still his map, we should try to make sure it goes the right way to a reasonable extent but in the end its his work..

snail 06/25/2018 8:47 PM

and yes

snail 06/25/2018 8:47 PM

the problem is the point system is fucked up and so are players mindset

snail 06/25/2018 8:47 PM

now to go around that he used another thing allowed by ddnet aka teamforce

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

the point system is not competitive, the players caring about it, not either. that's not "fucked up"

snail 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

its fucked up because it overvalues team 0

snail 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

and completely ignores teamranks

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

but why is that fucked up?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

it's just not competitive

snail 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

yes

snail 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

so that completely ignores a part of the players?

snail 06/25/2018 8:48 PM

how is that not fucke dup

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:49 PM

what's the point of points if they aren't meant to show off?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:49 PM
@Learath2

encouraging players to play. that's basically what it achieved

snail 06/25/2018 8:49 PM

u can do that with a higher rewarding system

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:49 PM

We could have just used

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:50 PM
@snail

a system not serving to the competitive players is not the same as "fucked up". it'd be bad if we didn't have systems for competitive players (because they're also a part of ddnet)

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:50 PM

maybe we don't have enough systems in that direction and we should fix it

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:50 PM

a better rewarding system also encourages people to play AND it makes it better for competitive people

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:50 PM

but that doesn't make the point system "fucked up"

jao 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

it is tho

jao 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

finishing for other names and stuff

jao 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

makes it completly pointless

snail 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

its "fucked up" becasue it completely ignores a part of the players

@heinrich5991
snail 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

and yes

snail 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

no accounts also makes it completely pointless

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

so the map would be "fucked up" because it doesn't allow non-competitive players that want to play in team 0?

jao 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

it's very far away from representing anything valuable

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

that doesn't make sense IMO

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:51 PM

yes

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

it would be "fucked up" because itr would allow players to cheat the parts

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

which mapper doesnt want

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

why is that so hard to understand xd

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

it makes the map easier, which isn't what the mapper wants the experience to be

jao 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

so every map is fucked up that doesn't have teamforce 😄

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

isn't it his map?

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM
@jao

yes

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

😦

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

but some mappers dont care

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

or want it

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

in this specific case he cares a lot

snail 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

so that should matter

Bumm 06/25/2018 8:52 PM

so just reset ddnet with new points system?

jao 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

and put teamforce on all maps

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM
@heinrich5991

its not fun creating a challenge knowing people will cheat it

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:53 PM
@Bumm

I actually want to do this but I'm scared of

@jao

killing me in my sleep with cyanide

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

we can prevent it there and he wants it

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

why should we not?

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM
@Learath2

go

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

but first finish accounts 👺

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

because we also want to serve for-fun players in team 0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

in your words, it'd be "fucked up" not to serve them as well

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM
@heinrich5991

we have hundreds of map for these

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:53 PM
@snail

you come and pass my exams and I'll write up the accounts instead

snail 06/25/2018 8:53 PM

yes

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

it's not like allowing teamforce will make every mapper use it

snail 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

but we have many more maps for that

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:54 PM
@heinrich5991

not every map has to cater for everyone

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:54 PM
@Learath2

yes, but it can

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

we don't have to artificially restrict it here

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

There are a lot of people who don't enjoy playing brutals

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

we're just imposing a restriction here in order to impose a restriction

snail 06/25/2018 8:54 PM
@Learath2

sure, hope ur fine with studying 1 more year tho

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:54 PM

No not every map can, we can only increase the amount of people it caters to with certain things

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:55 PM

and we don't have to force the mapper to cater to more

snail 06/25/2018 8:55 PM
@heinrich5991

we are imposing a restriction in order to make sure the map is played the way it was meant to be played

snail 06/25/2018 8:55 PM

i dont think thats bad

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:55 PM

we should instead fix the system at other places, if competitively playing people don't like team 0

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:55 PM

If they are allowed to make Insane 6* maps, why aren't they allowed to make their difficulty non-flexible?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:55 PM

I'm not trying to restrict the difficulty of the maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

you can create difficult maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

if you want to play competitively, we have teams

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

you want to stop people from playing in team 0

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

It's just that you won't be playing this certain map in team 0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

to make team finishes worth more

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

we have a metric fuckton of maps that are very good for team 0 play

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:56 PM

because they're not differentiated enough in some player's opinion

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:57 PM

and people are still making strongclones that still get released

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:57 PM

yes. we don't force people not to play in team on these either

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:58 PM

I don't think you should force people not to play in team 0 – fix the problem with team 0 in other places instead

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:58 PM

forcing it the other way around has no benefits at all

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:58 PM

it's always a question of who we force

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:58 PM

do we force players? do we force mappers?

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:58 PM

forcing it this way allows the mapper to very strictly regulate the difficulty of their map

jao 06/25/2018 8:59 PM

the difficulty for competitive people stays the same

Learath2 06/25/2018 8:59 PM

It's probably harder to design a non-cheatable map for team 0 play

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:59 PM

the other way around would be to disallow teams for some maps – I don't want that either, even though I rarely play in teams

jao 06/25/2018 8:59 PM

and competitive people is what matters here

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 8:59 PM

then make it slightly cheatable in team 0

Ravie 06/25/2018 8:59 PM
@Learath2

Yes it can be very difficult to make some parts not cheatable by for example putting 20 tees in a hole and skipping a part

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

why isn't it the mapper who decides how people experience their maps is my point

snail 06/25/2018 9:00 PM
@heinrich5991

once again from the mappers perspective when u create a challenge u want people to actually do the challenge uve created, not just run around not doing anything xd

snail 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

yes exactly what

@Learath2

said

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:00 PM
@snail

then just stop caring about people playing in team 0

snail 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

but if we really wanna force it, then create an actual ingame /team point system

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

they're playing their own game

snail 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

that will reward it

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:00 PM

all other points are just for supportive reasons

snail 06/25/2018 9:01 PM
@heinrich5991

no becasue its a case by case and obviously only fine with harder+ maps, we have over 1k maps for team 0 play

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:01 PM
@heinrich5991

they'll be listed in the same ladders

snail 06/25/2018 9:01 PM
Bumm 06/25/2018 9:01 PM

when they get a points system for team finishes, I want one for only team 0 finishes pls

jao 06/25/2018 9:01 PM

why do we not release every map then? why do we ensure some sort of quality? why do we have rules at all

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:01 PM

in team 0 with 3 people there are some fancy cheats you can do that won't be available to people in teams

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:02 PM

why don't we just add 100 points system's and everyone can be rank 1?

snail 06/25/2018 9:02 PM
@jao

ive answered that earlier

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:02 PM

quality is one thing, but if you put too many odd restrictions on mappers they won't feel inclined to map ddrace anymore and eventually most good mappers will quit ddnet, on the other hand ddnet is the only good way to let many people play your maps so mappers and ddnet have to find a way to coexist

jao 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

what if a mappers says they want bugs in their map

@snail
snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM
snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

well thats not reasonable

snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

obviously

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:03 PM
@Ravie

maybe we need some competitiveness for ddrace servers 😦

snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

but i dont think using something that is used by many other maps that ensures the map is played the way its meant to be is not reasonable

jao 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

and team restriction on team 0 playable maps is unreasonable in my opinion too

snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

well obviously many people disagree with ur opinion there

snail 06/25/2018 9:03 PM

while everyone will agree that bugs have to be fixed

jao 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

not everyone

snail 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

pls

jao 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

ofc some people would like to have hidden entity bugs for fun

snail 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

then its not a bug

snail 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

its an easter egg

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

see, but we disallow these, too

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:04 PM

and I don't want to allow them

jao 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

ok so we allow everything that mappers want, why do we have rules?

jao 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

I can make up some excuse like it's an easter egg for anything

snail 06/25/2018 9:05 PM
Learath2 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

who said anything about allowing mappers to do what they want?

snail 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

because that?

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

wanting a bug in your map or forcing team are not the same

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

requiring mappers to fix bugs is different than not allowing them to force their map to be played the way they made it to be played

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

We would be running a map hosting service if we didn't have rules

snail 06/25/2018 9:05 PM

we are there to "help" mappers and make sure the quality is good enough

snail 06/25/2018 9:06 PM

not to dictate how to map

jao 06/25/2018 9:06 PM

it's both unreasonable in my opinion

jao 06/25/2018 9:06 PM

so we have rules, then your argument that it's all about the mapper doesn't count

Rische 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

tl:dr for some ppl here?

snail 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

no my argument is that it should be reasonable

snail 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

and on that case it literally doesnt change anything on the map

snail 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

its just forcing him to see people cheating his map

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

he don't have to spec

snail 06/25/2018 9:07 PM

he will obviously see finishes

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:08 PM
@Rische

heinrich thinks teamforce isn't good, we think mappers should be allowed to choose how players experience their maps

jao 06/25/2018 9:09 PM

the problem is that you try to fix the issue with the point system not rewarding competivity with excluding players

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

even if we fixed it with points which you are against, i think a mapper should still be allowed to map a team only map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

but why?

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

and btw they are not excluded

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

just restricted

jao 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

then it's even more unreaonsable than now

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

its not liek they cant play the map

jao 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

if you are 3 people, you exclude 1 guy

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

then u play another map? lol

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

there are tons of map u cant play as 3

snail 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

even team 0

jao 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

then you exclude them from the map

jao 06/25/2018 9:10 PM

all 3

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

ok so remove every map with faily hf

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

where u cant come back

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

not playing as 3 lol

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:11 PM
@Learath2

other than the "competitive players don't get enough visibility", what is the argument for stopping players to play in team 0?

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

playable*

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

etc etc

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

thats just not an argument

jao 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

...

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:11 PM
@heinrich5991

it changes the way the map was meant to be played

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

if u are 3 u choose a map that fits 3

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

or that allows u to

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

not every map will fit every single amount of players

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

It is and should be mappers choice if the map should be played in 2p teams or not..

Rische 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

are u literally arguing with the same arguments from 1hour ago

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:11 PM
@Learath2

yes. put a "we recommend you play the map in team to experience it"

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

of the 1000+ team 0 playable maps mentioned earlier

snail 06/25/2018 9:11 PM

ye

@Rische

XD

jao 06/25/2018 9:12 PM

it's a difference if your map is by default ony playable for certain amount of players or if it's playable for everyone, but you choose to not make it playable with an external setting

snail 06/25/2018 9:12 PM

(and btw even in team 0 this map is not playable, becasue u cant do last part)

snail 06/25/2018 9:12 PM

as 3*

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:12 PM

so the question is whether we should allow the mappers to disallow team 0 in their maps or not, right?

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:13 PM

It has never been a problem, so why change it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:13 PM

changing nothing, we have a rule that discourages forcing team 0

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:13 PM
@Brokecdx-

^

jao 06/25/2018 9:13 PM

it's not true, we have a rule about it

jao 06/25/2018 9:13 PM

and we enforced it

snail 06/25/2018 9:14 PM

then maybe we should change that rule

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:14 PM

why are we forcing people to play dummy maps with 1 tee + dummy? why not 7 tees + 3 dummies?

snail 06/25/2018 9:14 PM

i dont even know where its from but i think it shouldnt be there

RayB. 06/25/2018 9:14 PM
@Ravie

awesome idea

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:14 PM
@snail

yea, no one is against changing rules in general. but I just don't like "[11:13 PM] Brokecdx-: It has never been a problem, so why change it"

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:14 PM

(hint because they are meant to be played with 1 tee + dummy)

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:14 PM

because that isn't the idea behind dummy maps

snail 06/25/2018 9:14 PM
@Ravie

why cant i play stellar with my 2 dummies they both wanna be there fix pls 👺

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:15 PM

I'm on it

@snail
jao 06/25/2018 9:15 PM

we can change the rule if people want it, maybe we should really do a poll about it

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:20 PM
@heinrich5991

this rule? "Only force a certain team size if the map requires it (e.g. if it contains a lot switches, is heavy cheatable with many players), not as an excuse for tight mapping."

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:21 PM
Learath2 06/25/2018 9:22 PM

When has anyone ever changed your mind on anything I wonder sometimes

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:22 PM

mine?

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:23 PM
@snail

the whole map is playable in a 3 player team

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:24 PM

yours or

@jao

's you both are usually so far convinced in the ideas you believe I'd need to hold a TED speech and write a paper in a peer reviewed journal about teamforce before I can even begin to get you to agree to a compromise

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:25 PM

but when they are right?

jao 06/25/2018 9:25 PM

xD

jao 06/25/2018 9:25 PM

[11:15 PM] jao: we can change the rule if people want it, maybe we should really do a poll about it

jao 06/25/2018 9:25 PM

does it sound like I wouldn't listen to other's opinions

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:26 PM

No they are always right

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:26 PM

Which is why I just write the patch instead nowadays

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:27 PM

hold the poll, don't hold the poll, just tell me the result please

StorмPʜöɴix 06/25/2018 9:27 PM

sure we can do the poll. But it seems like the whole "dont force team" is just to make everyone happy - but you simply cant

jao 06/25/2018 9:28 PM

and I never argued about removing it completely, when it's used for good reasons it's perfectly fine

jao 06/25/2018 9:28 PM

and you need it for dummy maps and stuff anyways

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:29 PM

The map is cheatable hard with 3 or more people no?

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:29 PM

why do we need it for dummy maps?

jao 06/25/2018 9:29 PM

not heavily in the sense that you could skip large parts of the map

@Brokecdx-
jao 06/25/2018 9:29 PM

so you can only join in a team with your dummy

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:29 PM
@Brokecdx-

the discussion doesn't pertain to this one much anyways

jao 06/25/2018 9:29 PM

else you could have 2 unfrozen tees

snail 06/25/2018 9:30 PM

isnt it possible to prevent that with proper switches

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:30 PM

it's just part of the fun no?

jao 06/25/2018 9:30 PM

xd

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:30 PM

besides yeah, the switches are akin to transistors, they should be pretty turing complete

snail 06/25/2018 9:31 PM
Learath2 06/25/2018 9:31 PM
@heinrich5991

don't take it the wrong way, you are always open to others opinions, you are just pretty hard to convince

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:33 PM

I dont think there is anything to discuss about other things than the map. So let's figure out why this map should not have 2p teamforce when it's clearly, at least for me is mapped to be played as a team of 2.

snail 06/25/2018 9:34 PM

the main argument against it is that it excludes people who wanna play in team 0

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:34 PM

hell there are 1000 other maps to play in team 0 no?

jao 06/25/2018 9:34 PM

we have to discuss the rule and remove it, then we can release the map

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:34 PM

Isn't that the purpose of team force

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:36 PM

why should ddnet release maps for just a few people?

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:36 PM

why should it aim for the impossible goal of releasing only maps everyone will like

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:36 PM

That makes no sence, ddrace is meant to be 2player only

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:37 PM
@Ravie

that one was argued against, if we can release maps that make more people happy we should

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

broke no

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

yes

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

no

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

you cant argument against it when u dont play this game longer than ddrace exist

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

s

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

lol

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

All ddrace maps are designed for 2p

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

4u

jao 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

also the ones that require more than 2 players

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

Ofc 4p but also parts for 4p

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:37 PM

or the 3p maps

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:38 PM

or is there any 2p part?

jao 06/25/2018 9:38 PM

or solo maps

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:38 PM

but that doesn't mean you should not accept maps a smaller group of people will like by default

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:38 PM

yes excatly my point

@Ravie
Bumm 06/25/2018 9:38 PM

the thing is that this map is playable in a team of 3 players and more

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

But not meant to be played like this therefor teamforce

jao 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

it's not about the map not being liked

Rische 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

gl on the last part as 3 lol

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

just hh

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:39 PM
@Bumm

go ingame and show me

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

ok but pls dont fail

snail 06/25/2018 9:39 PM
@Rische

hes just being a smartass ignore that

snail 06/25/2018 9:39 PM

its not relevant anyway, it was just an example

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:39 PM
@Brokecdx-

early ddrace maps didn't design for 2 players IIRC

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

Ofc they are

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

no they arent xd

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

I remember eXo_freeze, e.g.

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

xyz dd2 wasnt even possible as 2

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

it was in the early days of ddrace, everything still getting developed

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

but yes

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

thats not rly relevant imo

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

back then it was developed in russian forums 😄 by 3da IIRC

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

yep

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

the mod was new, it didnt rly matter

snail 06/25/2018 9:40 PM

people were trying stuff out

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:40 PM
@snail

😄 teetower

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:41 PM

^^

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:41 PM

Still best trick!

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:41 PM

it was fixed quite a while ago, doesn't work anymore IIRC

snail 06/25/2018 9:41 PM

there was not even the possibility to team

snail 06/25/2018 9:41 PM

so obviously maps werent thought with 2P teams in mind

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

but in the end, this map is

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

and thats what the discussion is about lol

snail 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

ye its true that it evolved and now its actually a 2p mod mostly

snail 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

well ye but u brought the past of the mod xd

jao 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

yet most played maps are team 0 maps

Rische 06/25/2018 9:42 PM

since its easiest to jump into t0 maps

Rische 06/25/2018 9:43 PM

just join a srv start the game

jao 06/25/2018 9:43 PM

I think it's just what people prefer to play

Rische 06/25/2018 9:43 PM

sometimes

Rische 06/25/2018 9:43 PM

yeah t0 is fun, sometimes you want to play challenging stuff aswell

jao 06/25/2018 9:43 PM

ye

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:44 PM

t0 maps are fun because it's less intense

Learath2 06/25/2018 9:44 PM

you can just chill chat and get dragged along

Rische 06/25/2018 9:44 PM

by me... -.-

Rische 06/25/2018 9:44 PM

always the getting dragged along guys.. ._.

jao 06/25/2018 9:45 PM

so let everyone choose what they wanna do and don't enforce anything 😃

Rische 06/25/2018 9:45 PM

yeah, let him change the whooole map

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:45 PM

why the sudden opinion change?

Rische 06/25/2018 9:45 PM

just so ppl can play it in t0

Rische 06/25/2018 9:45 PM

he didnt change his opinion

@Ravie
Ravie 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

was he sarcastic then?

Rische 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

no

Rische 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

"dont enforce anything" - dont enforce 2p teamforce

Rische 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

basically

jao 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

don't enforce anything as in don't enforce anything as the mapper

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

the map is fine like it is now for team 0

Rische 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

its clealy not

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

why

jao 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

ye it doesn't need huge changes, only the start and some minor spots

Rische 06/25/2018 9:46 PM

have fun at the very first part in t0

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:47 PM

release the map in team 0 and i will

Rische 06/25/2018 9:47 PM

basically every gores map ever when you change the srv on a full srv

Rische 06/25/2018 9:47 PM

*map

Rische 06/25/2018 9:47 PM

clusterfuck at the beginning

Rische 06/25/2018 9:47 PM

and within 5sec the map is getting changed again

jao 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

I still don't get this mindset where it's something bad to improve your map

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

thats how it is

Rische 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

why is it going to improve

Rische 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

if its t0 viable

Rische 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

if he doesnt even want that

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

It's just that what you consider improvement isn't neccessarily what the mapper considers an improvement

jao 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

I mean changing the start, slayer said earlier he would remove team force but not change the start

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:48 PM

[

@Bumm@jao@Rische@Learath2@snail@StorмPʜöɴix@Brokecdx-@Slayzn@Ravie@RayB.@Freezestyler

(sorry for the ping) mind if I post this discussion on github?]

Rische 06/25/2018 9:49 PM

he just puts in work for sth he doesnt evn want and at the end he isnt even happy

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:49 PM
@heinrich5991

yes

Rische 06/25/2018 9:49 PM

because he wants to see his map getting released, but not changing the gameplay

jao 06/25/2018 9:49 PM

I don't think anyone doesn't consider making the start playable with more people as an improvement

snail 06/25/2018 9:49 PM
@heinrich5991

i think he means he doesnt mind

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:49 PM

i mind it

snail 06/25/2018 9:49 PM

😮

Rische 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

jao, but its useless if its a 2p teamforce

Rische 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

that u could play it with 30+ ppl

snail 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

but anyway modifying the map is not the main problem here

snail 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

its about whether he is forced to teamforce it or not

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

but it should be lOL

snail 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

no

snail 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

becasue he doesnt want it to be team 0 anyway

Rische 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

it is, since he is clearly unwilling to change it

snail 06/25/2018 9:50 PM

even if it was huge

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

he don't care

jao 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

he seemed ok with removing team force

Rische 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

yes, not changing the map tho

snail 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

because that seemed like the only way to remove it lol

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

he is just to "lazy" to make it more team 0 playable

snail 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

he was clearly against it

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

but not changing the start as you said

jao 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

but ofc the bigger issue is the rule

snail 06/25/2018 9:51 PM
@Bumm

no..

snail 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

he clearly stated that he was against people cheating the parts

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

Solution: 2p force

snail 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

ye

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:51 PM

I dont see any problem

snail 06/25/2018 9:52 PM

so thats what it should be about, not modifying the start

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:52 PM

But jao wants the start modified when its t0

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:52 PM

it doesn't matter how easy it is to fix or if the mapper is too lazy to make the map more team 0 compatible, it should still be up to him to decide whether he wants to use team force or not

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:52 PM
@Ravie

exactly

snail 06/25/2018 9:52 PM

yes but if we remove that rule and it gets released as it is teamforced, discussing about changing the start is wasted energy

jao 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

btw if we encourage people to put team force on anything, they will just put it as soon as I say some spot is not playable in team 0 👌

Rische 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

i doubt so

jao 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

then we have countless of teamforced maps due to lazy mappers

snail 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

we dont encourage it

snail 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

we just allow it

Rische 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

and we can still encourage ppl to map t0 maps

snail 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

this is clearly a drag map with some transitions

snail 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

it does make sense

jao 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

so on another map you wouldn't allow it?

snail 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

i probably would

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:53 PM

up until now team forcing wasn't openly forbidden or anything, yet there are really few maps that use it

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

but u cant say it doesnt make sense here

jao 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

ofc it was forbidden

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

how long has the "dont abuse team 0" rule been there

jao 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

8 months or so

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

u wrote that rule right?

Ravie 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

where is it stated that it's forbidden?

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

see

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

its recent

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

yet there are so few maps using teamforce

jao 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

cause I declined them

snail 06/25/2018 9:54 PM

??

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

u declined every teamforce map since the dawn of ddnet

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

?

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM
jao 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

🤔

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

not every

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

mine is not yet declined

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

teamforce exists since ddnet exists

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

why are there so few maps using it

Rische 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

why is heartcore teamforced then

snail 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

its not like allowing it will completely destroy everything

Rische 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

i want to play heartcore in t0 too

Rische 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

or ghoul

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

me too

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

well. if we allow it and most mappers use it, then it will destroy part of the game for some players, right

@snail

?

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:55 PM

"""Only force a certain team size if the map requires it (e.g. if it contains a lot switches, is heavy cheatable with many players), not as an excuse for tight mapping. """

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:56 PM

It is heavy cheatable imo

jao 06/25/2018 9:56 PM

well it could happen, ofc I can't tell the future

snail 06/25/2018 9:56 PM
@heinrich5991

yes probably, but we can allow it while strongly ecouraging to make team 0 friendly/non teamforced maps

Rische 06/25/2018 9:56 PM
@heinrich5991

no, since its only used in a competitive environment, the casual players wont even realize that

snail 06/25/2018 9:56 PM
@heinrich5991

and its there since ddnet exists, that "rule" is only there for 8 months. yet there are so few maps using teamforce, its not a huge deal

Rische 06/25/2018 9:56 PM

and its not like every map will get a teamforce

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:56 PM
@Rische

I realized it already, and I didn't like it. I'm not a competitive player

Rische 06/25/2018 9:56 PM

which map

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 9:57 PM

heartcore

snail 06/25/2018 9:57 PM
@heinrich5991

if every mapper wanted to use teamforce it would probably be a problem yes, but thats not the case and we would be there to prevent such abuse

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:57 PM

every time I get a map (on non-solo, non-dummy maps, I expect it there) binary, e.g.

Rische 06/25/2018 9:57 PM

heinrich, so you want to play binary in t0

jao 06/25/2018 9:57 PM

how is it abuse if you allow it

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:57 PM
@snail

that's a hypothesis. "that's not the case"

Rische 06/25/2018 9:57 PM

completely destroying the difficulty scaling

Rische 06/25/2018 9:58 PM

its like a novice player crying he cant pass the noobfilter on an insane map

snail 06/25/2018 9:58 PM

yes it is

@heinrich5991

but it worked fine for 3 years or so

snail 06/25/2018 9:58 PM

why would it be any different?

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 9:58 PM
@snail

apparently because people enforced that rule. I think it was discouraged for longer than that specific rule existed

snail 06/25/2018 9:58 PM

this rule is recent

jao 06/25/2018 9:58 PM
@snail

btw I introduced the rule because it was indeed a problem that mappers made tight map and cause they were so lazy just put teamforce on it, that's even what the rule says

Rische 06/25/2018 9:58 PM

its like /spce

Rische 06/25/2018 9:59 PM

if your map needs /spec im fine with letting it have it

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:59 PM

yes

Bumm 06/25/2018 9:59 PM

but this map doesn't need team force

jao 06/25/2018 9:59 PM

spec doesn't exlcude you from playing it

Rische 06/25/2018 9:59 PM

teamforce doesnt either

jao 06/25/2018 10:00 PM

well then, it doesn't exclude you from playing it with how many players you want

Rische 06/25/2018 10:00 PM

if we had no teamforce on every map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:00 PM
@snail

where's the problem in allowing people to play it team 0. the issue is at a different place IMO. maybe you should not get points for maps that are heavily cheatable in team 0?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:00 PM

competitive would be a mess

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:00 PM

teamforce doesn't exclude anyone from playing the map

it just forces you to choose 1 partner to play with and thereby strengthening the bond of friendship between you two 🌈

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:00 PM
@Ravie

it usuually excludes me from playing the map

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:01 PM

Get a friend ;-;

Rische 06/25/2018 10:01 PM

then maybe the map isnt for you

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:01 PM

because I don't go into a server with a specific partner, but I just check who's there

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:01 PM
@Rische

I responded to "it excludes no one"

jao 06/25/2018 10:01 PM
@heinrich5991

his issue is still that it should be the mappers decision

Rische 06/25/2018 10:01 PM

the map excludes novice players because its a brutal map

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:02 PM
@Rische

it doesn't exclude players for only having finished novice maps before, it's not a technical requirement

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:02 PM
@Rische

then let's maybe fix the competitiveness, make a mapper's decision whether a map should give points in team 0 or something

Rische 06/25/2018 10:02 PM

we cant change the point system now

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:02 PM

why not?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:02 PM

and how do you want to do that

Rische 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

starkiller loses literally every point

Bumm 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

for the competitive you can speedrun maps?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

gl with that conversation

jao 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

wtf don't make it a complicated system, it's super weird if some maps don't reward points

snail 06/25/2018 10:03 PM
@heinrich5991

i dont think u can simply change how point system works

snail 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

that would be way too confusing

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

let every (non-dummy, non-solo) map be played in team 0, count maps that were previously team-forced as 0 points for finishes

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:03 PM
@snail

why the hell not?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

bcs ppl worked for their points

snail 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

because everyone will be confused and annoyed

snail 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

yeah

Rische 06/25/2018 10:03 PM

you cant just reset them

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

u cant simply come and be like "ok u lose 5k points"

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

we can reset them

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

but not just change the calculation out of the blue

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

I think you have misunderstood my proposal. if I worded it correctly no one loses points

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

but ur thing is also ultra confusing

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

how do i know ill get no point

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

even if theres a server message

snail 06/25/2018 10:04 PM

many people miss these

Rische 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

can we not argue about that now

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

you get a message, get some popup, I don't know

snail 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

so u play 30 minutes and then u realize u get no point

Rische 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

its about the teamforce

snail 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

i dont think thats realistic

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

why not?

snail 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

to make a point calculation exception for a dozen of map

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

wtf

snail 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

because its confusing and players will just not realize it

snail 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

until its too late

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

make it a dismissable popup

jao 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

remove 0 points maps

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:05 PM

I guess after changes have been made all points would be recalculated and adjusted

Rische 06/25/2018 10:06 PM

why 0 points for t0 maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:06 PM

I think you misunderstood my proposal

Rische 06/25/2018 10:06 PM

its just the the "rank" system isnt rly implemented anywhre

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:06 PM

0 points for finishing maps in team 0 where we previously had forced team

Bumm 06/25/2018 10:06 PM

like ghoul

Bumm 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

no1's gonna play then xd

Rische 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

maybe you

Rische 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

all the point hunters would stop

snail 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

they will play and not realize

snail 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

and then they will come on forum or discord and rage

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:07 PM
@snail

I think you're being disingenous towards my idea

snail 06/25/2018 10:07 PM

i dont think so

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

okay

snail 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

its just really bad to make a few exceptions imo

snail 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

its ultra confusing

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

You guys drift off the actual discussion, which is about Madrigal teamforce

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

we're making exceptions right now

snail 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

the game isnt fit for that

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

we don't allow team 0 in some maps,

@snail
Rische 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

do you know how dumb it is, seeing ppl finish maps in teams of 24players with no challenge at all and as 2 players its just insanely harder

@heinrich5991
snail 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

yes but u cant miss it

jao 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

and you still don't realize that teamforce is not evil, if used for a reason

jao 06/25/2018 10:08 PM

don't remove it as a whole

snail 06/25/2018 10:08 PM
@Rische
Bumm 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

Lexin but you will have team rank 1

Rische 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

no1 cares about that

Rische 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

its just getting the points atm

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

but why do you want to force people to care about your teamrank 1?

Rische 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

why force

Rische 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

its just for competitiveness

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

they can have their game of playing in team 0

jao 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

well it's in everyone's interest to have some sort of competivity that drives people

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:10 PM

you can have your game of playing in team, seeing how you're able to finish the map while others are not

Rische 06/25/2018 10:11 PM

the only fun maps to play at the moment in terms of competitive are solo maps

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:11 PM

yes. we have that, and maybe we should expand on that. we're talking in circles

Rische 06/25/2018 10:11 PM

rest is literally useless

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:11 PM

then work on improving the system, I'd say, not stop people from having the fun they usually have

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:12 PM

I think we're talking in circles

heinrich5991 06/25/2018 10:12 PM

we've been here a couple of times already

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

not every map needs to be played in t0

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

and i can tell u

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

it wont be fun playing this map t0

jao 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

I'd say someone who thinks teamforce should be optional based on what the mapper wants should start a poll somewhere, and then we go with what the majority thinks

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

its 4 parts which u will get dragged through

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

and end

Rische 06/25/2018 10:13 PM

where you will miserably fail

Bumm 06/25/2018 10:14 PM

but you had a funny game

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:14 PM

you should make reasonable decisions instead of always relying on "the majority"

Learath2 06/25/2018 10:14 PM

this is why discord isn't good for these discussions, people join in later and drive discussions in a circle 😛

jao 06/25/2018 10:15 PM

there are reasonable arguments on both sides, we can't agree on something like that

jao 06/25/2018 10:16 PM

and in the end it will hurt someone anyway, it's just the decision who it should be

Rische 06/25/2018 10:17 PM

maybe the mappers?

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:23 PM

I just had a look over the map and to me it definitely looks like a team map, it's just too tight in too many areas to be played in team 0

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 10:25 PM

"Only force a certain team size if the map requires it (e.g. if it contains a lot switches, is heavy cheatable with many players), not as an excuse for tight mapping. " problem is this rule states in the last part that it shouldnt be an excuse to map tight

Brokecdx- 06/25/2018 10:25 PM

Only reason for me is that parts are cheatable in t0

Ravie 06/25/2018 10:26 PM

some maps you just can't make not tight because of how it's structured and how some parts work

bit 06/26/2018 4:45 AM

wut, why am i here

plsplsplslol 06/26/2018 4:49 AM

because jao

bit 06/26/2018 4:52 AM

🤔

plsplsplslol 06/26/2018 4:54 AM
bit 06/26/2018 4:58 AM

😂 yeah, every time people talk about jao, i think of this -->🤔

vozdushniy 06/26/2018 5:00 AM
ZombieToad 06/26/2018 8:29 AM

help i didnt click check for this

Jambi 06/26/2018 8:50 AM

[12:26 AM] Ravie: some maps you just can't make not tight because of how it's structured and how some parts work e.g?

Ravie 06/26/2018 10:37 AM

For example Dodge, I know it's a solo map but my words still apply

ZombieToad 06/26/2018 10:46 AM
@jao

i want to unsubscribe to this channel

Jambi 06/26/2018 10:47 AM

i could map dodge more compact

Jambi 06/26/2018 10:47 AM

but overall it would look more messy

Bumm 06/26/2018 10:49 AM

The concept of Dodge is completely incomparable with Madrigal

Bumm 06/26/2018 10:56 AM

funfact when you look at the top10 of dodge you can see how 1 player can spam 4 ranks in it because just a very few people liked the map so much to play it again

jao 06/26/2018 11:00 AM

speedrunning /= playing again

jao 06/26/2018 11:02 AM

the top10 is spammed cause the map is made in a way that you have very similar times if you finish it without failing

Bumm 06/26/2018 11:44 AM

30sec between rank 1 and 10 that's not similar

jao 06/26/2018 11:45 AM

and 7 different people is not spammed

jao 06/26/2018 11:46 AM

🤷

Bumm 06/26/2018 11:48 AM

7 people that speedrunned a map good job

Ravie 06/26/2018 11:55 AM

I just mentioned Dodge as an example of a map that just can't really be mapped more spacious.

Bumm 06/26/2018 12:02 PM

And I just mentioned that you can't compare maps with an completely different concept like Dodge and Madrigal

Sliven 06/26/2018 2:38 PM

no u

DR.3AM 06/26/2018 6:25 PM

Hi I'm contributing nothing. Don't mind me

Gwendal 06/26/2018 9:46 PM

1083 post here

Gwendal 06/26/2018 9:46 PM

xdxd

jao 06/27/2018 1:07 PM

since the vote (

#announcements

) is in favor of keeping the rule, you should make the map team 0 friendly if you want to release it

jao 06/27/2018 1:07 PM
@Slayzn
Bumm 06/27/2018 1:45 PM
@jao

I don't think you should force him to make it more team 0 friendly, You can't force him to change his map style even if it isn't 6+ player friendly.

jao 06/27/2018 1:47 PM

I can't release a map that doesn't comply with the rules

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:47 PM

Which rules

jao 06/27/2018 1:47 PM

mapper rules

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:47 PM

which one

jao 06/27/2018 1:47 PM

"Don't make unnecessarily tight parts. Using more space will not only make your map more enjoyable, but will allow bigger groups to play together as well."

jao 06/27/2018 1:48 PM

"Your start area should be big enough for at least 10 players to start."

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:51 PM

This might be a good rule for novice and moderate

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:52 PM

but in this case it just fucks up the whole gameplay

jao 06/27/2018 1:52 PM

adding more space doesn't fuck up the gameplay

jao 06/27/2018 1:52 PM

rules apply to all maps

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:53 PM

It makes a map much easier

jao 06/27/2018 1:53 PM

if that's really the case, then he made parts hard the wrong way

jao 06/27/2018 1:54 PM

also, an easier start area doesn't ruin your map's overall difficulty

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:54 PM

It changes the balance rating

jao 06/27/2018 1:55 PM

no it's pretty normal that entry parts are a bit easier, what it would change is the playability rating; in a positive way

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:55 PM

I think not every tester know this

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:55 PM

like freezestyler

jao 06/27/2018 1:57 PM

if you believe someone rated something unfairly, feel free to tell me

Bumm 06/27/2018 1:58 PM

I will talk with him in private chat later

Bumm 06/27/2018 2:02 PM

Where are the big team 0 parts in the recent brutal maps? like Flux 1 and 2

jao 06/27/2018 2:27 PM

not asking for new, especially for team 0 made parts. it's about making the current parts playable for bigger groups by adding more space here and there

Slayzn 06/27/2018 6:34 PM

38 voted for f4

Slayzn 06/27/2018 6:35 PM

39 voted for yes

Slayzn 06/27/2018 6:35 PM

so my map can be teamforced

Slayzn 06/27/2018 6:38 PM

if u see there are many people out there who likes teamforced maps

Slayzn 06/27/2018 7:36 PM

41 for yes*

Brokecdx- 06/27/2018 7:58 PM

The vote got closed before your result

Rische 06/27/2018 8:28 PM

lol

Rische 06/27/2018 8:28 PM

he closed it after seeing that ppl are still voting

jao 06/27/2018 9:26 PM

k release then, didn't think so many would still vote

Slayzn 06/27/2018 10:47 PM

lel

Slayzn 06/27/2018 10:47 PM

it dostn matter if he close it or not

Slayzn 06/27/2018 10:48 PM

you see there are lot of people voted for yes

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 12:13 PM

team forcing is bad

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 12:14 PM

just to let you know, teamforced maps never get to the top on serverlist

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 12:14 PM

unless you are themix

Ravie 06/28/2018 12:39 PM

You know what does get to top on server list? Stronghold

Bumm 06/28/2018 1:51 PM

team 0 maps

Gwendal 06/28/2018 3:34 PM
@Ravie

Stronghold best map

Ravie 06/28/2018 3:38 PM

Sure, if you don't like maps that have parts

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:54 PM

yes

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:54 PM

do more team 0 maps

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:55 PM

but more like genericore 1,2,3

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:55 PM

not stronghold

Ravie 06/28/2018 3:55 PM

There are enough strongclones as is

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:55 PM

stronghold is a bad clone of genericore/hardcore

Gwendal 06/28/2018 3:55 PM

Stronghold best hh map

Ravie 06/28/2018 3:56 PM

I don't like those "all freeze" maps in general

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:56 PM

it's normal, not everyone likes the same

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:56 PM

i really dislike those edgehook only maps

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:56 PM

and teamforced maps

Ravie 06/28/2018 3:57 PM

Teamforce is alright for me since I always play in 2p team anyway

Gwendal 06/28/2018 3:58 PM

I often play 2p team too but it is funniest to be in t0 if u don't wanna tryhard

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:58 PM
Ravie 06/28/2018 3:59 PM

Team 0 is always too chaotic, in team with a friend you get nice teamwork + it's just more chill in empty server

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:59 PM

team 0 is chill too for me

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:59 PM

you just need patience

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 3:59 PM

and a little hope u dont have someone who doesnt know how to hh into hf properly

Brokecdx- 06/28/2018 3:59 PM

getting dragged is always chill 😉

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

haha

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

im the one carrying bro

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

but im not ego

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

so if someone wants to do it ill let them do it

Brokecdx- 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

im always ego

Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:00 PM

i know

Brokecdx- 06/28/2018 4:01 PM

but i can be

Ravie 06/28/2018 4:01 PM

In team 0 everyone tries to do everything at the same time but because of all the chaos it's hard for anyone to accomplish anything

Jesus Christ 06/28/2018 4:01 PM
#off-topic
Ryozuki 06/28/2018 4:01 PM

it fits more to

#general
jao 06/29/2018 10:02 AM

approved

Gwendal 06/29/2018 1:43 PM

I hope u approve that Stronghold is the best map

Gwendal 06/29/2018 1:43 PM
Slayzn 06/29/2018 5:33 PM

thats ur opinion

Gwendal 06/29/2018 8:30 PM

no it is opinion of brain people

Slayzn 06/29/2018 11:11 PM

brain people dosnt like 2ppl maps

Slayzn 06/29/2018 11:11 PM

ah oköö

Gwendal 06/30/2018 9:50 AM

i never said that 2ppl map was bad

Gwendal 06/30/2018 9:50 AM

i've f3 the vote

Slayzn 06/30/2018 8:23 PM

but i mean the guy 😄

jao 07/06/2018 8:16 PM

apparently the vote was manipulated. since that seems doesn't work, we'll have go with me deciding again and keep the rule. sorry

jao 07/06/2018 8:16 PM

put it as declined now since I guess you won't want to make the map team 0 playable. if you want to change it, tell here please

Brokecdx- 07/06/2018 9:58 PM

source?

Slayzn 07/07/2018 12:12 AM
Slayzn 07/07/2018 12:14 AM

gores fixed

Slayzn 07/07/2018 12:19 AM

at start*

Slayzn 07/07/2018 1:34 AM

removed teamforce

Oblikumquat 07/08/2018 1:32 AM
Oblikumquat 07/08/2018 1:33 AM

Only spent 5 minutes testing. I'll test the rest of the map some other time.

jao 07/09/2018 4:42 PM

are you sure that the new start won't cause blocking? the one un-solo is literally inside of the first part

jao 07/09/2018 4:42 PM

and to add something to obliques test: the first edgehook should probably not be faily like that, people can block/troll there really easy

jao 07/09/2018 4:43 PM
  • there is no real reason to have it punish you so hard
Ravie 07/09/2018 4:44 PM

You placed tele TO on the start instead of tele CTO and also stoppers are missing on the unsolo

Ravie 07/09/2018 4:45 PM

I think you should place unfreeze on the ground where TO20 is, it's annoying when you don't make it high enough to get unfreeze so you fall back and have to wait

jao 07/09/2018 4:48 PM

wouldn't hurt to put something more exciting then a simple tunnel as the winner room

jao 07/09/2018 4:50 PM

unsolo and solo shouldn't be the same marking 😄

Ravie 07/09/2018 4:53 PM

You can make this jump without taking speed (it's super precise to do, but still)

jao 07/09/2018 4:53 PM

I think that's all objective issues. personally I would change a lot gameplay and design wise, but I guess you won't care

Ravie 07/09/2018 4:55 PM

Marked red: I would put unfreeze to improve the flow

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:00 PM

should it marked?

Ravie 07/09/2018 5:01 PM

That's up to you, flow unfreeze doesn't always have to be marked

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:01 PM

ye that looks ugly

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:01 PM

but i added

jao 07/09/2018 5:01 PM

most top and down shields are not needed

Ravie 07/09/2018 5:01 PM

About that hard jump, Pulsar found if you stand on the x-position (jao made me delete the actual number for whatever reason) and walk right and then jump you will always make the jump

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:03 PM

i added more unfreez

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:04 PM

removed shields

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:04 PM

which jump

jao 07/09/2018 5:04 PM

his other screen

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:06 PM

ok i add 1 more freez line

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:06 PM

some more bugs?

Slayzn 07/09/2018 5:12 PM
jao 07/13/2018 5:18 PM

so what's with the first part

Slayzn 07/15/2018 4:22 PM

?

Syltoox 07/15/2018 4:29 PM

the edgehook i guess

Syltoox 07/15/2018 4:29 PM

with kill

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:16 PM

whats wrong?

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:18 PM

is that to hard for brutal?

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:19 PM
@jao

u mean the killtile?

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:19 PM

i guess he told u one time to fix it, because this is a spot where guys can easily block others

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:19 PM

u should make it unfaily or smth

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:19 PM

with tele maybe

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:19 PM

lol

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:20 PM

u can block every where

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:20 PM

but ok i add tele

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:20 PM

but thats right at the start

Syltoox 07/15/2018 5:20 PM

everyone can pass the gores part

Slayzn 07/15/2018 5:25 PM
jao 07/16/2018 1:02 PM

[6:42 PM] jao: are you sure that the new start won't cause blocking? the one un-solo is literally inside of the first part#

jao 07/16/2018 2:47 PM
  • the startline in solo (which oblique already mentioned) is weird
Slayzn 07/17/2018 3:06 PM

dosnt matter

Slayzn 07/17/2018 3:06 PM
Slayzn 07/17/2018 3:08 PM

fixed part 8

Slayzn 07/17/2018 3:08 PM

need reupload for test

Slayzn 07/17/2018 3:13 PM

moved unsolo to the platform

Slayzn 07/17/2018 10:05 PM

ok it works fine

jao 07/23/2018 11:21 AM

these fixes are ultra lazy. I thought a bit about it and we definitely shouldn't allow placing start-line inside of noob-filters. also, having its un-solo in the middle of a part makes no sense - really something that makes for blocking. please put some more effort into the changes. there is plenty of space where the filter is, so easy to rework it as a whole

jao 07/30/2018 12:10 PM
@Slayzn
Slayzn 07/30/2018 8:37 PM

wie kann man nur so nerven

jao 07/30/2018 9:22 PM

I guess that's a "no"

Syltoox 07/30/2018 9:27 PM

what about just teamforcing it?

Syltoox 07/30/2018 9:27 PM

a blind guy would see its a map made for 2p

Brokecdx- 07/30/2018 9:41 PM

If the mapper is not cooperative there is no reason to go on and try to make it releaseable

Slayzn 07/31/2018 3:43 AM
@jao

dein testing system is lazy