10:47 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40hV4cL4KYM
10:47 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> first water map taking shape
11:41 < ChillerDragon> please no :/
11:41 < ChillerDragon> is this really becoming a thing now? Where can one veto this?
11:42 < ChillerDragon> water is such a flow killer
11:44 < ChillerDragon> sorry for hating the new stuff you guys build but also the textures look a bit unpleasing its a nice mod and all. But having standard maps with this in it. And seeing the texture used across all custom servers in various places would be a bit unpleasing for me personally.
11:49 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> ChillerDragon: I feel the same as you do, but then you have to remember death tiles and unhookables are terrible in vanilla, break the flow and almost never help make good maps
12:26 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> ok I honestly don't know how to put this but we've worked so hard on this and I really think it turned out awesome already even tho a lot of polishing still needs to be done I don't understand the backlash I really don't,  also hearing a reaction like this is a huge motivation killer makes me really sad. Look the situation is this: tw has not been pushing the envelope in years and because of it it's a dead game if you deny this very
12:28 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> I agree with you, Zatline
12:30 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> ChillerDragon probably means the water texture being "unpleasing", but thats bullshit, I think every texture here looks very nice, I like the bubbles, the splash effects, the waves, the mask and also the water itself, it doesnt look bad imo. Please dont let your motivation fly away
12:33 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> > tw has not been pushing the envelope in years and because of it it's a dead game
12:33 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> not only because there is no new stuff, also because there are no accounts, its just a game you play a few times or while waiting for another round in another game.
12:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> for vanilla players at least, ddrace has kind of an "account" system, ranks are saved etc
12:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> well If he means the water splash effects I would totally agree with "unpleasing" as they are very blury and just don't look right atm but that part is still under development as we haven't figured it out yet how to make them look good
12:38 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> yeah an account system would certainly benefit the games longevity
12:48 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> also Dune I don't think "unhookables are terrible in vanilla" I really like unhooks when done in a way that benefits skill-sealing best example for this would be ctf5 the most played vanilla map in the game lol that map without unhooks would be boring.
12:50 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> +1
12:51 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> I think mechanics that integrate poorly in vanilla and in the flow of fast paced gameplay like unhookables can still benefit the game (no, ctf5 isn't a good vanilla map, it's just the TDM brawl by default nowadays)
12:53 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> ctf5 best vanilla map, lol
12:53 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> I also think ctf5 is the best map lol
13:04 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> but see that's exactly the point at the end of the day all comes down to personal preference you may not like ctf5 but a lot of people do, do you want to just ignore that? We the devs should want to have a diverse map pool by default, seeing ctf5 being the only map played tells me that our map pool at it's core is flawed.
13:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> My one suggestion if you are making anything new is to ignore the oldguard. We pushed a TINY physics change 6 months ago and the council of elders just crucified me and heinrich. 
13:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> 
13:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> Thd opinion of a handful of people n=10 is just meaningless data
13:11 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> > TINY physics change 6 months ago 
13:11 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> which?
13:11 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> Hammers out of freeze being guaranteed like all other weapons
13:12 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> ah yea
13:12 < bridge> [teeworlds] <fokkonaut> thats a good and fair change tho
13:13 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> There is a handful of people out there looking to just kill every new thing/change before it even makes it to prototyping. Just ignore them and work on your feature. Large scale testing is the only way to actually get feedback on this
13:15 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> The mentioned hammer patch was absolutely hated by a handful of people. Deployed to a thousand people it created many new possibilities for maps and techniques for navigation
13:37 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> that works against any counterargument for anything. "ignore advice if you do something, they're just haters"
13:37 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> though I do agree there is an insane amount of conservatism, probably because the game changed so little for ~10 years
14:40 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> is a feature, nobody forces you to use it, but it makes teeworlds more versatile.
16:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> It only applies to subjective counterarguments. Subjective arguments should only have validity with statistical backing
16:35 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> I'm not saying ignore advice, I'm saying you are fairly safe ignoring feelings unless there are is a large amount of people sharing the same feeling
16:35 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> I'm not saying ignore advice, I'm saying you are fairly safe ignoring feelings unless there are a large amount of people sharing the same feeling
16:41 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> If you feel that's a little harsh, a more conservative rule that respects more peoples "feelings" is to judge the person instead. The people that are doing "conservatism" for the sake of it have a way of talking that is intended to put you down, walking the knife edge between counterargument and ad hominem hoping you get dissuaded from working on your idea
17:47 < ChillerDragon> Yea sure I know it sucks to critize new ideas.
17:47 < ChillerDragon> @Dune fly maps make heavy use of killtiles and are the best type of vanilla maps
17:48 < ChillerDragon> @Learath2 the smol hammer change had a big impact on gameplay tho in my opinion (im not saying its bad but change is always tricky)
17:50 < ChillerDragon> The water texture it self is okay I talk about all the other textures. Like these glasses you can collect they look like a custom skin imo.
17:51 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Learath2> My point with the hammer change was that if we had caved in to the demands of the 3 people that hated change itself, we'd never have gotten actual feedback about it
17:51 < ChillerDragon> a tee has no nose im not sure what exactly bothers me maybe the shape is too complex for my eye.
17:51 < ChillerDragon> ah i see @Learath2 yea getting feedback is not easy
17:55 < ChillerDragon> regarding water I would also love to see some changes on that but im not an artist. I still thing a border would fit and smaller waves.
17:57 < ChillerDragon> d
18:42 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> well I too have an outline in mind for the water surface it is on the to do list it's just we focused on the particles first and still are working on that, Stiopa sadly is taking a break for a few months as he has exams comming up so gotta pick up on it later I'm afraid
18:50 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Zatline> and the glasses are the diving gear it's the item that enables you to use the water channels effectively the idea was for it to be a rare spawn or somewhat limited to only half of the team, or something like that .. I think they look very cute on the tee but ya
21:38 < louis> lol
21:39 < louis> if im being honest, then this waiteir will not be used too much in vanilla
21:39 < louis> i think it is a great and cool feature, i love to see good things being added
21:40 < louis> will definitely be more popular on non-vanilla tho
21:42 < louis> i feel like the speed in water needs to be more fast too
21:42 < louis> think abt how fast-paced normal tw is
21:42 < louis> the water seems like a disadvantage, even if it cuts some parts of the map
21:43 < louis> id make the swimming speed faster and the scuba speed much faster
21:45 < louis> wait idk if scuba gives more speed or just more air nvm
21:46 < louis> eh well maybe the speed is ok, just watched the vid again (btw why water showcase vid only has 30 sec of water physics D: )
21:47 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Stiopa> diving gear does give more speed (it increases the cap of speed you can go to before being slowed down)
21:47 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Stiopa> also allows you to ascend & descend more quickly
21:49 < louis> ah nice
21:49 < louis> well cool feature. i agree w learath on that there are a handful of teeworlds boomers that get enraged whenever something tiny changes
23:58 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Stiopa> about the current speed; it will be tweaked. it's supposed not to be too annoying, but it has to be & feel like water. A more 'defensible' position at the price of movement some sort of thing.