03:38 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> aaand more ragequit.  you guys need to fix the fucking balance, if you're still talking about programming this game. :P
03:39 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> it's not fun to get 3 kills and then the rest of the players leave server. I hate it on the 'pro' side just as much as on the noob side of getting ass handed to me by people with, what, 10+ years of reflexes honed by practice?
03:39 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> come on
03:39 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> fix this shit
03:41 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> put in SOME kind of balancing, this shit of "3 players have over 100 score and the rest under 10" is CLEAR EVIDENCE that there is a need to account for the different skill levels of players :P
03:44 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> also ChillerDragon I like your server but I'm sick as fuck of ctf5
03:44 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> :P
03:44 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> (relevant because it's the only reliable server to play on!)
04:54 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Skayland [Identifyy Host|msg me]> This was discussed before
04:55 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Skayland [Identifyy Host|msg me]> Accounts cant be implemented without a proper server
04:58 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Skayland [Identifyy Host|msg me]> From my point of view separating players is a bad idea, this is supossed to be a FAST paced shooter,
04:59 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Skayland [Identifyy Host|msg me]> noobs are slow, they should catch up, and will do, eventually. separating noobs and pros wont help, no one said this was an easy game
06:25 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> skayland, if you think accounts are the thing I want out of this then I'm not communicating clearly because I don't want that at all or think it's of benefit in a game without players because it has no balance
06:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> FURTHER I ALSO do NOT want player separation
06:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I want advanced and new players to be able to play together in a way that at least is not so infuriating as to constantly drive both to ragequit or borequit
06:27 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> TLDR what I *ACTUALLY WANT* is some kind of HP and armor max value adjustment, based on kill/death streak averages
06:27 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> ie, you CAN TELL DYNAMICALLY BY SCORE who's the advanced player, they do this thing where they do ALL THE SCORING
06:28 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> it's not uncommon to see 3 or more tiers of player in a game, the 2% who've played the whole time and get 100's of points and are impossible to play against, and who will be impossible to play against even if you can one shot them, because they'll never let you hit them
06:29 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> and then there's the 96% of the players who can basically play CTF and hold their own
06:29 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> and then there's some noobs, who tend to either get good fast or to not stick around.
06:31 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> and, adjusting by streak, means even players keep roughly even amounts of hp and armor through the game, as it is now- and the nerfing happens for the noobs that need it, and the assholes that only want full HP and armor to be able to rocket jump across any map in three rockets without having to get health.
07:51 < rand> I wonder if reducing armor/heart pickups can have a similar effect
09:55 < day> i see a million loopholes to counter JewZeus proposed solutions :P
09:56 < day> suicide to reset the killstreak
09:56 < day> quit/rejoin
09:56 < day> stop killing all together and go for flags
09:59 < day> rocket jumping is a requirement, the game would be dirtslow without it. i guess you could reduce the self damage to 1, but then nades would be even more viable in melee range than they already are
12:45 < rand> github is not the correct place for gameplay discussion, but I don't find any thread on the forum about it
12:46 < rand> JewZeus, Choscura: could you make a thread on teeworlds forum ?
12:50 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> Development
13:54 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> day the rocket jump thing, the advanced players have *SO MANY* options for going fast, and can get health on the jump too, and the *CURRENT SPEED* of gameplay means I literally have to rocket jump, catch up, *GET AHEAD* of the advanced player, fire AHEAD of them, and hope that the lag means by the time they get to my rocket, it has spawned and can hit them.
13:56 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> so, lol, whatever the hell your concept of "you need to be going 900 mph with grenades" thing is, just doesn't wash.  You made a game that's better as ddrace because of that stuff.
13:57 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> Also, yes, dickhead players CAN kill themselves, but the thing is, they'll have to keep doing that to keep undoing their score
13:57 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> and the ctf thing, we can treat score streak like kill streak
14:03 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> oh yeah, one other thing that would also help add some balance day, and deal with your dickhead player problem at the same time, give credit for grappling hook in contact with falling player or in contact when player hits spikes.
14:35 < bridge> [freenode] <Choscura> rand I'll try to get an account made and start a thread and lay this out today
16:45 < day> JewZeus: i still think it is too slow :| or hooking to easy.
16:47 < day> there are multiple issues, but tbh. I don't really know how to fix them either without causing new issues.
16:49 < day> however punishing players who are good can't be good. moba's simply do the opposite, they reward players who kill good players. the the play modes (ctf,dm, etc.) make this difficult to implement. like what would be a tangible reward?
16:50 < day> in ctf points are meaningless. in dm i guess you could assign points to players based on their streaks, however this simply will lead to players purposely ending their streaks (lol has or had this problem afair)
16:53 < day> i guess you could spawn bad players with armor, or even some weapons. that wouldnt really hurt the overall gameplay
17:05 < day> that would probably be gamebreaking in competitive games on smaller maps though, where the attackers always have terrible kdr's. at some point the defense will likely not have enough firepower to even kill them :D
17:54 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> A peak level player doesnt need to use grenade to be fast or score points, and doesnt need to rjjump more to get ahead the enemy
17:56 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> Once noobs get tired of gettin hit in the face they’ll start to used their head hopefully and read enemy moves
17:57 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> The fittest should rise above and not the dumb ones with game play helps
18:00 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> I agree and i know vanilla could use some more balance improvements and overall improve matchups
18:00 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> But i also dont want to dumb it down
18:42 < Dune> "the fittest should rise above"... and the rest will stop playing
18:43 < Dune> not sure if that's what we want
19:44 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> i didnt say nor mean ditch the rest and let them ragequit
19:44 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> matchmaking would help in that case
19:45 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> which is, i believe, possible even without accounts
19:46 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> to better say, "i hope"
19:47 < Dune> I see, how would you prevent very good players from sabotaging lower level matches?
19:53 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> why would they even do that?
19:54 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> lesser rewards on lower level games if you're high level
19:56 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> then "smurfs" and things related to that are common issues in every game i believe you cant do much about it
20:12 < Dune> sure but I don't think many people would care much about basically glorified server levels
20:50 < bridge> [teeworlds] <redix> matchmaking would probably be a better approach than trying to balance a running game
20:50 < bridge> [teeworlds] <redix> but most of the time there are just not enough players to fill more than one ctf server =\
20:53 < Dune> even if there were, I'm not sure how you'd do matchmaking that splits per level
20:53 < Dune> how do you do anything that isn't basically glorified server levels
20:53 < bridge> [teeworlds] <redix> to be honest... balancing a shooter is kinda hard. even big commercial games with matchmaking and extensive statistical data fail to create balanced games
20:54 < Dune> most big commercial shooter games have mandatory accounts, that makes it easy to do a proper ladder/matchmaking
20:55 < Dune> it's also less of an issue when the game is young, because the average playtime of people is much lower and the skill gap is much easier to bridge
20:55 < Dune> telling people to "just get better now" would mean to catch up with years of trainings
20:58 < bridge> [teeworlds] <redix> just adding some scaling of the armor / health might completely fail. There should definitely be some tests before adding something like this to the game. Solo attacking with max 5+5 hp on ctf5 when rest of your team is just camping the flag would be really frustrating. Just as an example where this might create some problems
20:59 < Dune> Yeah
21:00 < Dune> My approach to the problem would just be to make the game fun without having to be in the top 30% of the server
21:00 < Dune> anyone joining teeworlds now or coming back casually has no shot at that
21:03 < rand> *waiting for anyone to implement BalancedCTF mod*
21:04 < Dune> I doubt any significant change to the vanilla gameplay would go through without backslash, it has fossilized in everyone's minds at this point
21:04 < rand> starting by reverse weakhook so that people that dies a lot get a better hook
21:04 < Oy> not enough players (servers with players) to do proper match making
21:04 < Dune> yeah
21:05 < rand> because noobs rageguit because of poor balancing !
21:05 < Dune> I think most newcomers do a few games then stick to PvE
21:05 < Dune> I'm positively surprised at how many newcomers we still get though
21:05 < Oy> well, kinda hard when u can't move with the hook
21:06 < Dune> oh yeah, I remember taking forever to get the hang of the thing :D
21:06 < rand> thing you can't learn properly with ennemies
21:06 < Dune> I think the newbie ddrace maps barely use hook?
21:06 < rand> (in a short span)
21:06 < Dune> I guess there aren't that many polished games that run well on linux/toasters
21:07 < Oy> we need server bots, then people could learn with easier enemies
21:08 < Dune> if the server gets a bit of traction, then some regular player will come in and destroy them, though
21:08 < Dune> so it'd have to be PvE?
21:08 < rand> could be server bots on a server started locally from client
21:08 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> local practice with bots yeah
21:09 < Dune> oh
21:09 < Dune> not sure if that's fun if you can't play wiht friends though
21:09 < Dune> and hosting a server is hard
21:10 < rand> the idea is to start a party from client, that spawn a server on map X with Y bots on game mode Z
21:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> then there should be an ingame "create local server" ui and all that comes with servers configuration
21:10 < Dune> yeah but without port forwarding, meh
21:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> its local
21:10 < Dune> yeah
21:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> ah bots right
21:10 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> cant connect
21:11 < Dune> wrote a feature like that back in the days, people used it to test maps they made and that's it afaik
21:11 < Dune> well no bots, nvm
21:12 < Oy> don't have to be local
21:12 < Oy> think newcomers liked the royal bot server back in 0.6
21:13 < Dune> oh, right 
21:14 < Dune> they were terrible iirc :)
21:17 < rand> good enough
21:18 < rand> hardcoded path + waypoint to camp somtimes
21:18 < rand> server side bots don't need to connect
21:20 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> camp the flag.
21:20 < Oy> newcomers aren't good either, just need someone to play and learn it that way
21:20 < rand> jxsl13: that is a simple enough to get a bot that defends the flag
21:21 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> that was ctf criticism.
21:21 < rand> isn't defending a part of ctf ?
21:21 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> but yeah, might be a good approach for a server side ctf training mod with bots
21:24 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> or ask chilli for his client bot to be added to some more servers if he likes. the bot's not overpowered and is still fun to play against.
21:42 < Dune> yeah I meant they were positively terrible
21:45 < Dune> but client bots shouldn't be the preferred option to get CTF with bots :( they don't integrate well with teeworlds (player count, skins)
21:48 < rand> server side bots are at a standstill on my side
21:49 < rand> last thing about bot is a attempt to add a lua API to the server codebase in order to prototype simple bots mechanics
22:59 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> @Dune `sv_maprotation test/test test/test2` is not working for me :C
22:59 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> I doubt folders work
23:17 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> ffolders work with sv_map
23:17 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> and change_map
23:31 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> try "test/test" "test/test2"
23:32 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> was the delimiting character a space or a ;   ?
23:33 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> I'd test the behaviour without the subfolders first, if that works as expected, continue to subfolder stuff.
23:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> the quotes won't work
23:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> outrageous
23:34 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> xD
23:58 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> delimiting character is just space
23:58 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> like in the above not working example