02:37 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> @Assa way overkill imo :(
06:39 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> so I think I have a reasonable idea for how to do balancing in this game so it is better than this no-balancing or balancing-programmed-by-hedgehog, and basically my thought is that each player has a "max armor/health" variable that is changed by player kill streak
06:40 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> so basically if you *ARE CURRENTLY ON* a kill streak your armor + health can drop to some certain minimum, I think a good baseline is probably 5 each so you can actually be one-shot killed, because that's the only way to make it fair against the fucking 10
06:40 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> -year-veteran DDRACE players
06:40 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> so this is clear this is NOT a game mode suggestion, this is a way to fix this dogshit fairness situation
06:41 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> or at least, a proposed *starting point* of *trying* to fix how dogshit the balancing/fairness is in this :D
06:42 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> also corollary idea, if you're on a negative streak/death streak, maybe it's fair to nerf-up the noobs who aren't going to hit anybody anyway
06:42 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> up to 15/15 health/armor
08:23 < rand> @JewZeus you should open an issue about this topic on github
11:41 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> @Dune ???
11:41 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> ah the namespace
11:59 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> rand: no gameplay issues on github, they become very messy :/
12:00 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> Btw it would mean that dying regularly is necessary to be a flagger
12:15 < rand> oops, my bad
12:39 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Assa> i made a mistake: a process spawning 10 workers, but each worker spawning 10 more workers ...
17:41 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> Dune, it basically needs that adjustment, but the mechanism of it also nerfs up the noob players in CTF so they stand a few more hits
17:41 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> -5 armor/health or +5 health armor if you get on a losing streak
17:41 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I mean, at this point its a lot of people letting kids play type stuff too
18:20 < bridge> [teeworlds] <ShootXen> Well why do players tend to try to make games easy nowdays? If you are Bad and die a lot that just means to get better
18:20 < bridge> [teeworlds] <ShootXen> Also all those good vanilla players are not playing ctf5(no really often)
18:22 < bridge> [teeworlds] <ShootXen> The evolution of "games" and "players" are just a joke, compared to 15years ago
18:23 < bridge> [teeworlds] <ShootXen> Games which doesnt require a brain are mostly mainstream
18:46 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Sonix> Agree with shootxen
21:42 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> I agree with the sentiment but I think Teeworlds is ill-equipped to be a competitive game and achieves the "casual community game" pretty well
22:19 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> shootXen, this whining about people "trying to make the game easy" does not fit. There's a clear need for this, because the MOST COMMON order of events on a game server is 1 long-term empty server gets a player, 2) a second, usually more advanced player also joins, 3) the more advanced player swings around and the newer player can't play the game effectively until they 4) ragequit and leave an EMPTY SERVER AGAIN
22:20 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> making a game that *induces* rage-quitting means you are *inducing* players to not-play.  none of the physics have to change, I don't want to nerf the game so it's not fun for the advanced players, but fuck, if you can get a 5-kill streak in this game, basically you don't need full health and full armor
22:21 < rand> that's why a training ground/mod could be a nice improvement for teeworlds
22:21 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> no
22:21 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> insufficient
22:22 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> it's unreasonable to demand the average player sink 50 hours of learning JUST TO PLAY
22:22 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> that's stupid
22:22 < rand> I strongly disagree with the unfair solution you are stating
22:22 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> what is unfair?
22:23 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> come on, be specific, "if you're on a killing streak you have less HP, if you're on a dying streak you have more HP"
22:23 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I won't say this is a perfect solution?
22:23 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> I find this idea interesting as well
22:23 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> it gives some more challenge to the pros, even
22:23 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> but it's better than this "oh lets just treat the 10 year veterans and the 10 minute noobs as equals"
22:24 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> because, they fucking aren't
22:24 < rand> making harder for tees to survive
22:24 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> yes
22:24 < rand> this is already the case
22:24 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> harder for SKILLED tees to survive
22:24 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> but only on in-game data
22:24 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> not even server records
22:25 < rand> then, newbies will die on second hit
22:25 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> no they won't
22:25 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> the noobs get the extra HP
22:25 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> some sort of autobalancing sounds isn't too bad, I think, rand
22:25 < rand> then starting a killing streak
22:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> yeah, and then de-nerf a bit
22:26 < rand> and loosing their advantage
22:26 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> yes
22:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> and then re-nerf as they die more
22:26 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> it shouldn't apply capgames ofc
22:26 < rand> so dying just aftes
22:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> it's not like any of these are 1-life games?
22:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I mean some ddrace maps
22:26 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> but not the vanilla game
22:27 < rand> this is only about delaying the frustration
22:27 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> why won't you entertain the idea at all, rand?
22:27 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> the delaying of the frustration is what lets a new player get better for a little while longer
22:27 < rand> ilj
22:27 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> instead of moving on to a less-frustrating game, of which we are in the middle of a rennaissance, perhaps y'all have also noticed
22:28 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> this game has staying power, it is a good game, but the fairness basically doesn't exist, and the 10 years of reflexes basically give some players what may as well be cheat mode from the other side of the learning curve
22:29 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I've only played since december? and I'm already making people ragequit. I don't mind this handicap on myself.
22:30 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I want people to have fun, so that they'll play and I can fucking well play with them. that's why this needs fairness.
22:30 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> one would have to see whether these mechanics can be abused though
22:30 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> they probably can, I don't think they're so suitable for 1v1 matches, especially of equally skilled players
22:31 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> but in general? on a 2v2 ctf, and every scale above that? I think it works
22:31 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> in a 1v1 of a noob vs pro, I think it has potential to work also
22:31 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> somebody gets ahead and their HP is down by the amount they are ahead by
22:31 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> etc
22:39 < rand> I don't think community issue should be handled by changing the gameplay
22:40 < rand> while autobalancing could bu improved by better statistics on player
22:40 < rand> in teambased game I mean
22:41 <@heinrich5991> is it a community issue if I want to play against lower-skilled players and have fun?
22:41 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> ctf = camp the flag >:D
22:41 <@heinrich5991> it would be cool if it was possible, don't you think?
22:42 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> That's called smurfing, a term I also learned of recently :o.
22:43 < rand> my experience is: quit when noobs are playing, level down when it's interesting enough, do my best when there are better player
22:43 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> rand: some games have casual modes that bend the gameplay to make it less frustrating for newbies
22:43 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> newcomer retention is an issue :(
22:43 < rand> basically, play when it is fun/challenging
22:44 < bridge> [teeworlds] <jxsl13> I guess rand is right with, old pro players should learn when to "level down", in order to make the game more appealing for new players.
22:44 < rand> Dune: are we talking about vanilla ?
22:44 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> Yes
22:45 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> I guess iCTF was a casual mode in a way back in the days
22:45 < bridge> [teeworlds] <Dune> I don't like changing the gameplay based on your K:D, but I don't think the general idea is so bad
22:46 < bridge> [teeworlds] <heinrich5991> I liked dune's (implicit) idea of putting it in another gametype
22:47 < rand> my point is, this is not suited for current vanilla gametype
22:47 < rand> my opinion
22:48 < rand> but I do think it could be and should be tested as a mod
22:50 < rand> training mod/stuff should be implemented to though
22:52 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> rand part of the reason the training stuff is fundamentally *not an actual solution* is that muscle memory is built up by successive repitition, over thousands of iterations, and there is *no reasonable way* to put a player through that *other than making the game fun enough to play that they'll play it*
22:53 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I'm not against "raw mode" for advanced players or something, but this game is *very* unforgiving of the noobs who *should be staying and hanging out, getting better*
22:54 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> I mean, for fucks sake, there's slither.io that's been out for 5 years unchanged *despite* this also being a generic category of game now
22:54 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> mass play the whole time, because it's so accessible via browser
22:55 < bridge> [freenode] <JewZeus> but there's teenet as a thing that existed for a minute? this game can do that stuff, but it has to be welcoming enough to new players that they *stay*
23:01 < rand> trainging repeating stuff to actually be better right after
23:01 < rand> *training
23:02 <@heinrich5991> meh
23:02 < rand> bunch of games start with a tutorial or something to get the mechanics of the game
23:03 < rand> *training is about repeating...
23:03 <@heinrich5991> I think all new multiplayer games have some way of equalizing the skill amongst players
23:06 < rand> the main mechanics I see is to avoid disbalanced games
23:06 < rand> because players are ranked
23:06 <@heinrich5991> plus comeback mechanics
23:07 <@heinrich5991> e.g. in dota
23:07 <@heinrich5991> you get more gold for kills if you're behind
23:51 < bridge> [freenode] <Choscura> well, I want to be able to switch out comptuers with my kids in a lan party, type going-by-current-score dynamics
23:51 < bridge> [freenode] <Choscura> which is part of why I think the way to do it by score
23:52 < bridge> [freenode] <Choscura> <also to avoid confusion? I use two different screen names on IRC, one's a pi that's basically text only and one's to be able to check media links and such, I'm also JewZeus>