14:43 < NiKiS> matricks, hi, so you are the main teeworlds admin?
14:44 < NiKiS> or who's in charge of master-bans.cfg?
14:46 <@heinrich5991> why do you ask? do you want to appeal a ban?
14:48 < NiKiS> heinrich5991, no, i want to ask why aren't you banning Illuminati server, based on this topic: https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=11639
14:48 < NiKiS> today I hosted a new map with a friend and got ddosed by Vali and Teemo again
14:49 < NiKiS> there are lots of people who are wintesses of their bad deeds
14:50 < NiKiS> as long as they host the #1 teeworlds server, they will continue to ddos everyone
14:50 < NiKiS> I hope you can ban them to stop it
14:51 < fstd> you mean as long as they continue to ddos, they will host the #1 server
14:52 < NiKiS> yep, this is true
14:58 <@heinrich5991> NiKiS: I'll reread the topic.
14:59 < NiKiS> heinrich5991, thanks, there's a lot of useless info there, if it won't be enough, tell me what evidence you need.. I will collect/record it
15:05 < day> im playing tw for years ive never realized that kind of drama in the background
15:08 < koomi> it's mostly around the "block" mod AFAICT, it has a pretty horrible community
15:09 < Edible> so this doesnt affect the standard or ddrace mods?
15:09 < Edible> oh good, idc then
15:10 < deen> Edible: ddnet servers are very much affected by their ddos attacks
15:10 <@matricks> NiKiS: I'm not the admin and I don't have much todo with teeworlds at all now adays, but I know why it's not being banned
15:11 < NiKiS> matricks, I think I understand you, you think it's just some local conflicts that happen all the time between server owners
15:12 <@matricks> NiKiS: there has been a long standing policy to not get involved with player disputes
15:12 <@matricks> NiKiS: also, there is no evidence at all
15:12 <@matricks> NiKiS: and the slim evidence that is there is annecdotal with is the worst kind of evidence
15:13 < Edible> hey/hi deen! i thought you retired n stuff
15:13 < NiKiS> matricks, that's why I came here and ask what kind of evidence is required
15:13 < koomi> they would probably just get a new IP address if the current one were blocked
15:13 <@matricks> NiKiS: starting to ban servers on annecdotal evidence is a bad idea as people can start claing here and there
15:14 <@matricks> NiKiS: I have no idea what I would qualify as evidence enough
15:15 < NiKiS> matricks, I think this situation is an exception and not the rule
15:15 <@matricks> NiKiS: it's have happened before
15:15 < NiKiS> i'm not saying you should ban every server by a slight complaint 
15:16 <@matricks> and knowing what to ban is.. well.. a bitch, because we got no logs what so ever
15:16 <@matricks> and then you have to connect the logs to a server etc etc
15:16 <@matricks> it's just a mess
15:16 <@matricks> we have made sure that our servers that we have should be able to withstand attacks like this (I think atleast)
15:17 < NiKiS> I know, but there has to be some way to restrict hackers/ddosers from teeworlds
15:17 <@matricks> NiKiS: if you got one I'm all ears
15:17 < NiKiS> xD
15:17 <@matricks> NiKiS: I've been poundering the whole aimbot situation for years with no good solution
15:18 < NiKiS> yeah.. I see
15:18 <@matricks> all solutions I come up with takes severeal hours to implement and a couple of minutes to defeat so
15:19 < NiKiS> I think the only way is to make some sort of Teeworlds police
15:19 < NiKiS> a group of trusted people who will sit/play on servers
15:19 < NiKiS> and contact/report hackers/cheaters to admins
15:20 < koomi> and then what?
15:20 < NiKiS> they will get an IP ban - they will think next time to ddos/cheat
15:20 <@matricks> oh fuck...
15:20 <@matricks> that's my response to it
15:20 < NiKiS> :D
15:20 < NiKiS> I know IP can be changed
15:21 <@matricks> problem still is evidence gathering
15:21 < NiKiS> anyway... yes, it's hard to ban them
15:21 < NiKiS> but it's easier to ban ddoser's server that is registered on the master server
15:21 <@matricks> oh, this server is being DDOSed... okey.. yeah.. lets.. who do we blame?
15:21 < NiKiS> yes, true
15:21 <@matricks> just look at that thread on the forum, no idea what there is true, lies and just missunderstandings
15:22 <@matricks> sure, getting some ip numbers of servers doing the DDOSing can be done, but you can't connect those to a server
15:22 < Learath2> i think its impossible to get solid evidence against a ddosser 
15:22 <@matricks> NiKiS: remember that we can't trust the servers to provide good information as well
15:22 < NiKiS> matricks, I can connect vali and tinlex to Illuminati server though
15:22 < NiKiS> matricks, deen can confirm they are ddosers
15:22 <@matricks> NiKiS: without annecdotal evidence
15:23 < Learath2> and how do you connect illuminati server to the ddos ?
15:23 < fstd> beat them with their own weapons -- ddos back
15:23 < Learath2> \o/
15:23 <@matricks> fstd: like a real kid!
15:23 < NiKiS> they are smart enough to protect their server
15:23 < fstd> matricks: sounds more like out of options, actually
15:23 < fstd> not that i'd care
15:23 < fstd> NiKiS: you cannot protect against big enough a ddos
15:24 < fstd> conceptually
15:24 < NiKiS> yes, but no one will spend $100 to ddos some little game server
15:24 < fstd> except the people that are ddosing in TW for years, it seems :)
15:24 < Learath2> apparently they do
15:24 < NiKiS> matricks, the fact that vali and Tinlex are ddosers don't need to be confirmed, and people can confirm they are admins of Illuminati server
15:25 < NiKiS> matricks, isn't it enough to ban? o_O
15:25 < NiKiS> they state "exec" as their clan
15:25 < Learath2> how do you connect this illuminati server to the ddos tho ...
15:25 <@matricks> NiKiS: so, we are banning Illuminati servers just because vali and tinlex own them?
15:25 < NiKiS> "exec" is written in the beginning of the map
15:25 < NiKiS> matricks, yes!
15:25 <@matricks> NiKiS: why?
15:26 < NiKiS> matricks, because ddosers shouldn't have their own server
15:26 <@matricks> NiKiS: you have to connect the dos attacks to vali and tinlex then
15:26 < NiKiS> matricks, ok they were talking about ddosing my server, than it lagged and crashed, than vali joined to confirm
15:26 < NiKiS> matricks, like I said, deen suffered for years because of them
15:26 <@matricks> NiKiS: all annecdotal
15:27 <@matricks> NiKiS: I also heard that your mother likes to slut it up during the weekends
15:27 < NiKiS> deen, help me here :D
15:27 <@matricks> some kind of evidence
15:27 < NiKiS> haha
15:28 <@matricks> there is a reason why witnesses are useless evidence
15:28 < NiKiS> matricks, that's why there should be active players that witness ddoses/hacking like this
15:28 < NiKiS> matricks, if you played teeworlds yourself, and this server in general, you wouldn't think a minute to ban them
15:28 <@matricks> NiKiS: they have to be able to gather evidence some how
15:29 <@matricks> NiKiS: I've been accused of cheating in the past when I'm not so.. you know
15:29 < NiKiS> okay, how are servers master banned now?
15:29 <@matricks> NiKiS: we check them
15:29 < NiKiS> https://www.teeworlds.com/master-bans.cfg
15:29 < NiKiS> so the admins join, see bots or whatever, than ban?
15:29 <@matricks> I think minus is the one who updates that one
15:29 < Learath2> all the ban reasons there are provable things
15:30 < NiKiS> # proxying another server to steal passwords, apparently
15:30 < NiKiS> apparently you should ban Illuminati too :)
15:31 <@matricks> take down the masters and let the community sort it out
15:31 < Learath2> \o/
15:31 < NiKiS> nope!
15:31 < NiKiS> there should be laws
15:31 <@matricks> NiKiS: and there is
15:32 <@matricks> like I said, having people on servers and playing is, well, how can they gather evidence?
15:32 < NiKiS> chat logs
15:32 <@matricks> useless
15:32 < NiKiS> ._.
15:32 < botnik> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=._.
15:32 <@matricks> NiKiS: who do you know who is who in the chatlog?
15:32 < NiKiS> matricks, yes, it can be faked
15:33 < NiKiS> but if you play on 1 server long enough, you know who is who
15:33 <@matricks> NiKiS: also, okey, this guy is bahaving bad, how do I ban him?
15:33 <@matricks> NiKiS: got no ip to him
15:33 < NiKiS> you can't, yes
15:33 <@matricks> also, we are talking about banning servers, not players...
15:34 < NiKiS> bad players host a server, it should be banned
15:34 <@matricks> it's a mess to try to confirm anything
15:34 < NiKiS> that's all I'm saying :)
15:34 <@matricks> bad server hosters should have their servers banned, yes, but I know of no way of actually establishing that
15:35 < NiKiS> ask a trusted enough person con confirm it..
15:35 <@matricks> how? that is the problem
15:36 < NiKiS> or by indirect evidence
15:36 <@matricks> and there is too many servers to govern as well
15:36 < NiKiS> you can't have full evidence here
15:36 < NiKiS> well, at least deal with some servers that many people complain about
15:36 < NiKiS> like me now
15:37 <@matricks> so, we need to have someone on that server and playing... to observe what?
15:37 < NiKiS> to observe that vali and Tinlex are, in fact, admins
15:37 < NiKiS> and owners
15:37 <@matricks> and then?
15:38 < NiKiS> than ask deen to confirm they are ddosers
15:38 <@matricks> how can he confirm that?
15:38 < NiKiS> because I'm not a well known person here
15:38 < NiKiS> by his experience :)
15:38 < deen> NiKiS: as I said, I have no substantial proof
15:39 <@matricks> there we go
15:39 < NiKiS> but.. if they said "i will ddos you"
15:39 < NiKiS> and than server crashes
15:39 < NiKiS> it is a good indirect evidence
15:39 < NiKiS> and if more people witness it = it's a proven evidence
15:39 <@matricks> then there has to be one of your "police" there to observe that when that happens
15:40 < deen> (haven't followed the entire discussion, just saw my name mentioned)
15:40 <@matricks> okey, then we know that someone named PlayerA DDOS:ed it for example, then what?
15:40 < koomi> NiKiS: what if it's someone using their name?
15:41 <@matricks> koomi: I was gonna come to that
15:41 <@matricks> koomi: next step if fakenick and take servers down
15:41 < NiKiS> they won't fake their nicks, they are too proud of them
15:41 <@matricks> hours spent investigating, circumvented in 2 seconds
15:41 < koomi> NiKiS: but someone can fake their nick in order to get their server banned
15:41 <@matricks> NiKiS: ofcause they will, they like to destroy things
15:41 <@heinrich5991> no, he means I go to some server, call me NiKiS and threaten to ddos someone
15:42 < NiKiS> heinrich5991, I know, but isn't it strange that only 2 nicknames were used for years to provide spam/flood clients and ddos servers?
15:42 < NiKiS> and the same nicknames are used now to host a server?
15:42 <@heinrich5991> matricks means for the future
15:43 < NiKiS> koomi, heinrich5991 yes, it may be done to take down an already existing server
15:43 < NiKiS> but they were bad guys long before Illuminati server
15:43 <@matricks> NiKiS: but if we start using that why to confirm ddosing and server connections, they will change pattern and start getting other servers not just DDOS:ed, they will be banned
15:44 <@matricks> which is even more effective from their point of view
15:44 < NiKiS> matricks, that's why i'm not asking you to ban every server
15:44 < NiKiS> it's an exception here
15:44 <@matricks> and I'm saying that it's like opening the floodgates to even bigger problems
15:44 < NiKiS> no it's not :D
15:44 <@heinrich5991> you could argue that this is exceptional, I guess... but it sets bad precedent
15:45 <@matricks> NiKiS: this means that we have todo it again if it happens again, and then they could be fake nicking
15:45 < NiKiS> no you can't
15:46 < NiKiS> so it won't be a precedent..
15:46 <@matricks> so this is just a very shortterm fix
15:46 < koomi> this discussion probably already lasts longer than it would take them to get a new IP
15:46 <@matricks> koomi: yup
15:46 < NiKiS> than ban another IP
15:46 < NiKiS> it will still be the same name
15:46 <@matricks> NiKiS: how do you know that?
15:46 <@matricks> NiKiS: and we ban that, do you think they will be called the same thing next turn?
15:47 < NiKiS> matricks, ok, even if the name is changed, they won't change "exec" clan and their names
15:47 <@matricks> this is gonna be wack-a-mole
15:47 < NiKiS> let's try at least :)
15:47 <@matricks> nope
15:47 < Edible> shadow ban?
15:47 < NiKiS> I can't understand this :(
15:48 < NiKiS> you should be interested in more servers on teeworlds
15:48 <@matricks> NiKiS: but you have to see the next step
15:48 < NiKiS> but I as a mapper can't host my map because of them
15:48 < fstd> but it isn't teeworlds, it's filthy mods!
15:48 < fstd> this is a net win for vanilla -- maybe vanilla people are the ddosers!
15:48 < NiKiS> fstd, still the same master server though :)
15:48 <@matricks> fstd: thats another way to go, just ban all servers that isn't vanilla
15:49 < fstd> i know you'd love to
15:49 < NiKiS> non-vanilla is what makes teeworlds live for so long :)
15:49 <@matricks> NiKiS: the problem is that we would spend a lot of time chasing down servers, users and admins to play whack-a-mole :/
15:50 < NiKiS> matricks, outsource this job!
15:50 < NiKiS> and investigate only serious crime
15:50 < NiKiS> =)
15:51 <@matricks> why investigate when we can't gather evidence... again
15:51 <@matricks> I don't even know that the admins behind Illuminati servers are behind the DDOS attacks...
15:51 < koomi> we could ban specific mods that create a lot of trouble...
15:51 <@matricks> lets start with trying to prove that
15:52 <@matricks> sigh, guess why I stopped doing teeworlds stuff? this kinda stuff just drains me
15:52 < NiKiS> I was just told that I guy who hosted my map wasted 500 GB of his 3000 GB monthly quote in 1 day
15:52 < NiKiS> *a guy
15:52 < NiKiS> *quota
15:52 <@matricks> NiKiS: nothing we can do anthing about
15:52 < NiKiS> and he plans to shut server down
15:53 <@matricks> can't control the data sent to his server
15:53 <@matricks> can't pay for his dataplan
15:53 < NiKiS> matricks, if you were a good admin, you would listen to many people confirming 1 fact
15:53 <@matricks> could solve this how many other games solves it
15:53 <@matricks> NiKiS: I would listen to facts
15:53 < NiKiS> and not be afraid of "many people will bug me in future"
15:54 <@matricks> NiKiS: the problem isn't that, the problem is how to decide who is wrong and who is right
15:54 < NiKiS> matricks, indirect evidence.. that's all you can get
15:54 < NiKiS> in teewotlds
15:55 <@matricks> indirect annecdotal evidence...
15:55 < koomi> doesn't mean it's good enough
15:55 <@matricks> based on chat logs
15:55 <@matricks> where people can fake nick
15:55 < NiKiS> matricks, but people will confirm that there was no faking
15:55 < NiKiS> because only 2 guys can ddos like that
15:55 < NiKiS> vali and teemo
15:56 < NiKiS> everyone knows it
15:56 < NiKiS> everyone knows they host #1 server
15:56 < NiKiS> and you do nothing
15:56 < NiKiS> just great
15:56 <@matricks> perhaps people should be protecting their servers?
15:56 < day> in like 5secs :D
15:56 < day> ups
15:57 < day> NiKiS: what #1 server do they host?
15:57 <@matricks> NiKiS: spend hours on banning, seconds to circumvent doesn't seem a good way to spend time
15:57 < day> im pretty certain the #1 server is something like faggot69? a dm pub server
15:57 < NiKiS> day, just uncheck "standart gametype/map" and sort server by number of players
15:57 <@matricks> iwhat you are suggesting isn't a solution
15:57 < day> lol
15:58 < day> NiKiS: which game mode are you talking about?
15:58 < day> ddrace? :D
15:58 < NiKiS> matricks, spend 5 seconds to ban an IP and make lots of people happy, justice restored
15:58 < NiKiS> day, it's testddr because test_cmds are on
15:58 < day> i need 5 to reset it...
15:58 <@matricks> NiKiS: doesn't take 5 seconds, just this discussion is 1 hour
15:59 <@matricks> NiKiS: just banning an ip takes seconds, but gathering the reasons etc todo so takes longs
15:59 <@matricks> NiKiS: I know a way to make all DDOS go away, but you are not going to like it
15:59 < NiKiS> matricks, you won't see anymore complaints about any server like you do now
15:59 < NiKiS> and you won't get a topic with 1500 views
15:59 < NiKiS> anyway, I see it's useless
16:00 < day> NiKiS: the server isnt the issue. the people behind it are
16:00 <@matricks> NiKiS: you mean that noone will ever DDOS again?
16:00 < NiKiS> matricks, at this level, no one
16:00 <@matricks> NiKiS: how about vali and teemo?
16:00 <@matricks> NiKiS: do you think they will stop because we ban their servers?
16:01 < NiKiS> matricks, they at least won't be happily playing on their own server
16:01 < NiKiS> the reason they ddos is to make their server the most popular
16:01 <@matricks> NiKiS: and how long before they update the ip?
16:01 < koomi> according to https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=116437#p116437 they are on the receiving end of ddos attacks aswell
16:01 < NiKiS> and the succesfully do it, thanks teeworlds admins
16:01 < NiKiS> they are talking bullshit in that topic
16:02 < NiKiS> just smart way to make you think they are innocent
16:02 < day> NiKiS: theres only one legal way. Sue them.
16:02 < NiKiS> day, you can't sue an IP address
16:02 < NiKiS> and you can't connect chat logs to IP address
16:03 < NiKiS> so you can't do anything about ddosers.. but at least take fun from them
16:03 < day> NiKiS: they are hosting a server, ddossing people. trust me there are leads
16:03 <@matricks> NiKiS: how long do you think it will take them to change their ip and start all over again?
16:03 < koomi> that might well be so, but I don't think they are the only ones in the ddrace/block community with the capability to DDoS
16:03 < NiKiS> matricks, like I said, at least they will know they are out of the law
16:04 < NiKiS> right now you support their ddosing
16:04 < NiKiS> at least looks like so
16:05 <@matricks> so we ban them once and it all starts over again... then what?
16:05 < NiKiS> ban a few times more
16:05 < NiKiS> it takes money to obtain a new IP address
16:05 <@matricks> or solve the problem forever, master servers only reports servers that we setup on our own
16:05 < NiKiS> eventually they will stop
16:06 < NiKiS> hmm actually this may be the best way
16:06 <@matricks> which means no mods, only vanilla
16:06 < NiKiS> nope, just make a topic on the forums
16:07 < NiKiS> "new server applications"
16:07 < day> lol
16:07 <@matricks> yeah, lol
16:07 < day> and NiKiS manages them
16:07 < day> 24/7
16:07 < NiKiS> there're a lot of useless servers on teeworlds anyway
16:07 < NiKiS> like only 20 mods
16:07 < NiKiS> and only 50 active servers
16:07 < NiKiS> out of 1000
16:08 <@matricks> yeah, so we might have to deal with 1000 server applications
16:08 <@matricks> and new servers pop up and disappear regularly
16:08 < koomi> NiKiS: why don't you get a server with some fancy DDoS protection?
16:08 < NiKiS> I see
16:09 < koomi> if it's so important to you I'm sure you can shell out the 30EUR/month or whatever
16:09 < NiKiS> because I won't pay money for a super protected server for teeworlds
16:09 <@matricks> NiKiS: no, you want to spend "free human time" instead of paying money
16:09 < koomi> instead you complain for hours on IRC and try to convice people they have a moral obligation to spend large parts of their live dealing with your troubles?
16:09 < NiKiS> and those 2 guys will ddos even the best vps
16:10 < NiKiS> koomi, not my troubles, everyone's
16:10 <@matricks> we can't stop DDOS so.. there is that
16:10 < NiKiS> it's just that I'm the only guy who does someting
16:10 < NiKiS> you can ban a ddoser's server
16:10 < koomi> NiKiS: and by "everyone" you mean the community around one specific mod
16:11  * matricks drops the discussion, work needs to be done
16:11 < NiKiS> koomi, that seems to be the most popular mod in teeworlds
16:11 < NiKiS> fuck it
16:11 < NiKiS> server owner took down his server
16:11 < koomi> I'd rather have that mod devour itself than risk the larger teeworlds community
16:11 < NiKiS> I spent days designing a map for nothing
16:12 < NiKiS> because lazy teeworlds admins don't care about users
16:12 <@matricks> you are looking for a easy solution to a hard problem
16:12  * matricks is no admin
16:12 < day> NiKiS: those lazy admins dont get a cent
16:12 <@matricks> and actually spend money on teeworlds, so there is that
16:13 <@matricks> on DDOS protection etc
16:13 < koomi> NiKiS: again you're acting like someone has an obligation to deal with any of this
16:13 < NiKiS> but if you decided do to do something, do it good
16:13 < NiKiS> that's my rule
16:13 < koomi> solve your own problems instead of blaming others
16:13 < NiKiS> if you can't look after you game, shut it down completely
16:13 <@matricks> NiKiS: yes, we wanna do something and something good, but can't find the good todo
16:14 <@matricks> same thing with the aimbot stuff, we wanna have a solution, be we can't find one
16:15 < NiKiS> have a list of accepted clients
16:16 < NiKiS> check their md5 hashes and stuff
16:16 < NiKiS> have a VAC-protected servers that check for accepted clients
16:16 < NiKiS> like cs go lol
16:16 <@matricks> NiKiS: that doesn't work
16:16 <@matricks> NiKiS: that means closed source == no mods
16:16 < NiKiS> and why it's not? aimbot is just a modified and compiled exe
16:17 < NiKiS> you did a mod, you posted it in "accept my client" thread, you got accepted, done
16:17 < NiKiS> there just needs to be some way to filter servers/mods
16:17 <@matricks> NiKiS: how do we know that you are running that client?
16:17 < NiKiS> matricks, check md5 of exe
16:18 <@matricks> NiKiS: and if you just send the md5 of an accepted exe?
16:18 < NiKiS> should be reported before connecting to a server
16:18 < NiKiS> okay that's a problem
16:18 < NiKiS> :D
16:18 <@matricks> NiKiS: we can't trust the server or client at all, which means that anything they send can be faked
16:19 <@matricks> NiKiS: so all hash checks etc are useless to verify anything
16:19 < NiKiS> yeah I got it now, I remember there was some hash after teeworlds version
16:19 < NiKiS> that every client copied
16:19 < NiKiS> just to allow you join any server
16:19 <@matricks> NiKiS: that has is just there for development purposes
16:19 <@matricks> NiKiS: not for any security measures
16:20 <@matricks> to make sure that you are running a compatible server and client
16:20 < NiKiS> I see, but if you don't know about this trick, your modified client can't connect to any server
16:20 < NiKiS> so I needed to check other client's sources to find it
16:20 <@matricks> if you modified any of the files concerning the protocol yes
16:20 <@matricks> any aimbot wouldn't even touch those files
16:20 <@matricks> so the hash wouldn't update
16:21 <@matricks> and just doing a hash for all source files and call it anti-cheat is a laughable idea
16:21 <@matricks> takes longer to implement then to circumvent
16:22 < NiKiS> I see
16:22 <@matricks> thats the problem with all tactics that Ive come up with, prevention takes more time then actual circumvention which means it's useless effort todo
16:22 <@matricks> some of the more advanced ideas take 50-100 hours to implement roughly, and about perhaps 1 hours to get passed.. or even that
16:22 < NiKiS> at least we have voteban for aimbot
16:22 < NiKiS> it's enough in most cases
16:23 < NiKiS> xD wow you're determined
16:23 <@matricks> what I've thought about for servers and etc is some sort of hoard immunity against bad servers but I'm not certain on how todo it
16:24 <@matricks> problem is that all data gathering from servers are unreliable as they can be modified, but if most servers can be trusted, you can do some sort of herd immunity to get around that problem
16:24 <@heinrich5991> NiKiS: that anticheat is an unsolved problem can be seen in games such as cs:go
16:24 <@heinrich5991> the companies producing it have loads of money, yet you can just download a cheat from a random site
16:24 <@matricks> heinrich5991: it's the nature of it
16:25 <@heinrich5991> I'm just trying to provide evidence that it won't suddenly get solved in teeworlds
16:25 <@matricks> when they solve DRM, cheating will be solved as well
16:25 < NiKiS> heinrich5991, yes, but they are afraid of loosing access to the game they bought
16:25 <@heinrich5991> NiKiS: well, no
16:25 <@matricks> NiKiS: and for a free game? :D
16:25 < NiKiS> matricks, they are not in teeworlds, yes
16:25 <@heinrich5991> there's lots of people who don't mind spending 3€ when cs:go is on sale to get 10 accounts
16:26 < NiKiS> heh
16:26 <@matricks> NiKiS: like I said, reasons why we don't ban servers or write anticheat stuff is because the amount of work that would go towards it is easily circumvented and then it's just time wasted
16:26 < NiKiS> matricks, i still think a "master server application" should be implemented
16:27 < NiKiS> like a small web app
16:27 < NiKiS> teeworlds.com/apply
16:27 < NiKiS> you fill some forms
16:27 < NiKiS> than click "send" and wait
16:28 < NiKiS> admin gets a notification, checks the server, and accepts if everything okay
16:28 <@matricks> requires a bunch of people to manage that, and... uncertain what it would be solved
16:28 <@matricks> I don't have time
16:28 <@matricks> work!
16:28 < NiKiS> :D
16:28 < NiKiS> okay thanks for a comprehensive talk
16:29 <@matricks> time spent on this discussion has cost me more then DDOS protection for month, just so you know
16:29 < NiKiS> lol I see :D still was worth it
16:33 <@matricks> NiKiS: just remember that I'm no admin what so ever, I don't do anything on teeworlds anymore
16:33 <@matricks> NiKiS: except pay some bills
16:34 < day> matricks: what are you paying for? webserver? master server?
16:34 <@matricks> day: domain
16:35 < day> matricks: how much are people offering your for the domain?
16:35 <@matricks> day: huh?
16:35 < day> no ones trying to buy it? :o
16:35 <@matricks> no
16:36 <@matricks> I get people who wanna put ads on it however
16:36 < day> teeporn
16:37 <@matricks> I just tell them politly, but firmly, to fuck off
16:37 < day> <3
16:38 < day> the traffic is managable?
16:38 < day> im guessing most downloads are through steam now anyways
16:39 <@matricks> dunno, I don't think it's much. minus got that
16:39 <@matricks> steam, dunno, I was against steam, still is
16:40 < day> i still have no opinion on that
16:41 < day> doesnt feel like any harm was done ingame
16:41 < day> but the big player flood didnt come either
16:42 <@matricks> day: I'm against centralized stuff so
17:11 < allu2> "at least we have voteban for aimbot " - Can't count the times I've seen this feature being abused :P
17:15 < allu2> NiKiS: How about making somekind of whitelist mod? Have password or some auth system + display playercount as 0 always in the server view (Should be fine for a mod right?) if the aim is to have server to play with people and avoid being targeted for DDoS that should more or less, right?
17:16 < NiKiS> allu2, yeah accounts would help too
17:17 < NiKiS> if people have old accounts with achievements/race times they won't use aimbots
17:17 < allu2> Besides aren't everyone in race community using some custom client? adding some kind of authentication on it should be possible
17:17 < NiKiS> they will be afraid to loose their accounts
17:17 < NiKiS> *lose
17:17 < allu2> Well accounts are easier to ban then ip's, since takes longer to make an account (captcha?) then to switch ip :P
17:17 < NiKiS> right
17:20 < allu2> Well there are tons of ways to do this even without any modifications to Teeworlds itself, but usually it boils down to visiting some website or running some script from the client side, which imho isn't all that convinient
17:21 < NiKiS> anyway, nothing will be done here, as you may see
17:21 < allu2> Well, there is not that much they can do
17:22 < allu2> They could ban the illuminati server, but it wouldn't stop them, and I doubt you can say anyone who DDOS people to have problems "pride" to begin with
17:22 < allu2> I could see them going to DDOS servers with your nick next just to annoy you, since if what you said is true, everyone would know its them anyway
17:24 < allu2> Only solution I see to the problem is to form network of people you know and trust and have own server for them, whitelist system of sorts, and have their servers show always 0 in server list, or since clients ask the info you probably could make it so that only whitelisted players see the playercount
17:24 < allu2> Then host few of these servers to work as dummies and it becomes just annoying to try DDOS them, you wont see the results or even know if anyone was there at the time
17:25 < Stitch626> NiKiS, u can maybe search someone who owns a ddos protected server, and ask them to host your map.. thats mostly a good solution
17:26 < NiKiS> Stitch626, yeah it will be done soon
17:26 < NiKiS> anyway, some guy read my post on the forum and started ddosing Illuminati back
17:27 < Stitch626> i'm sure i know which people it was...
17:27 < NiKiS> anyway, that's all we can do, fight each other with server stressers lol
17:28 < allu2> :P bit pointless, get your friends and close them outside
17:28 < NiKiS> I think so too, I'm not the one who's doing it, but I'm still happy
17:29 < NiKiS> justice should be served
17:33 < allu2> Well justice should be the hand a law, not small inconvinience
17:33 < Stitch626> don't forget how teeworlds works.... i remember one only-one way to get a masterserver ban, is to break the specified rules for server hosting, nothing else. sometime i think bad solution, sometimes not. anyway i'm glad with the handling of the masterbans. everything else would be "unfair" (no way to verify all informations) <- thats the core content of the discussion up
17:33 < Stitch626> (and i'm sorry for some eng mistakes...)
17:34 < NiKiS> no worries, I understand
17:34 < allu2> np, if there is something I'd want devs to do that I think they could do, its to release 0.6.4 on the front page already :P
17:35 <@matricks> also, another way to fight aimbots is to make the game hard to predict and tap into the processing power of the human brain
17:35 <@matricks> too bad that computers are more powerful then humans now adays
17:35 < Stitch626> yeah, look at the token system @allu2
17:36 < allu2> Atm I think there is 1 vanilla server besides the ones I host that is in 0.6.4
17:38 <@matricks> I got an idea
17:38 <@matricks> all servers gets banned after 4 weeks of uptime
17:38 < NiKiS> O_O
17:38 < allu2> Thats radical
17:39 < allu2> I think we could first try removing chat, it would probably cool people down
17:39 < NiKiS> lol
17:39 <@matricks> allu2: I've thought about that
17:39 < NiKiS> I wish there was voice chat in teeworlds
17:39 <@matricks> allu2: and nicks
17:39 < NiKiS> it would be epic
17:39 <@matricks> NiKiS: yeah, and pitch all voices waay up
17:39 < NiKiS> )))
17:39 <@matricks> miim im im im iimmiii
17:39 < NiKiS> exactly
17:39 < NiKiS> DO IT!
17:39 <@matricks> that would be fun :D
17:39 < NiKiS> don't let your dreams be dreams!
17:40 < NiKiS> :D
17:40 <@matricks> and remove emotes
17:40 < allu2> Yeap
17:40 <@matricks> allu2: I've thought about this, do a blizzard about the whole thing, anonymous gaming
17:40 <@matricks> allu2: cut the greifers out
17:41 <@matricks> allu2: and only one join button if you wanna play that mode
17:41 < allu2> "In this update we bring back the core of teeworlds. We've done all we can to take you players back to what its all about with no drama"
17:41 <@matricks> allu2: so no servers gets promoted
17:41 < allu2> :D
17:41 < allu2> Just leave Favorites and possibility to manually add ip's?
17:42 <@matricks> allu2: NO!
17:42 < allu2> But how do I get to the server I host D:
17:42 <@matricks> allu2: and it's gonna be 1on1 only
17:42 <@matricks> allu2: you don't, because then you can cheat
17:42 < allu2> :D And staff hosted servers?
17:42 <@matricks> p2p gaming
17:43 < allu2> Sounds sweet, but what about the latency?
17:43 < fstd> p2p 1on1.. what could possibly go wrong
17:43 < allu2> Perhaps Teeworlds should be made turn based, you can move 5 sec and then its enemys turn
17:43 <@matricks> fstd: NOTHING :D
17:43 <@matricks> allu2: got a p2p rpg design like that
17:44 < allu2> How about of having p2p teeworlds with client generated world where everyone would play
17:45 < allu2> By the time you find another player you don't want to kill them
17:45 <@matricks> hehe
17:47 < allu2> You would start gathering people, eventually organizing them in forums and such, clans would be born which schedule times when they all play and move in the world, and as more clans born they eventually meet in epic group battles :P
18:14 <@minus> matricks │ take down the masters and let the community sort it out ← thought about that
18:16 <@minus> day │ im guessing most downloads are through steam now anyways ← download traffic didn't really change much, 300-500GB/month
18:20 < Stitch626> not rly much
18:20 < Stitch626> how's about the masterservers?
18:21 < Stitch626> (traffic/month)
18:33 < allu2> minus: I think bringin the masterservers down sound good. What i wonder is how to make it easy for new clients to find those masterservers?
18:34 < allu2> Surely ddnet and the likes would have their own masterserver up in no time, I wouldn't mind hosting a masterserver myself depending what it actually takes to host one, but even then problably only chickenmilk members would ever find it :P
18:35 < allu2> somehow masterserver for masterservers sound pretty meta, you think it could be a solution?
18:42 < rand> nope, only spreading masterserver on a sticky topic in the forum seems good for me
18:43 < rand> let say each masterserver has rules that server that want to register on it have to respect not to be banned from the admin
18:44 <@heinrich5991> the problem with any such proposal, unless it gets support in the client: 10 ppl will use that master server
18:44 < rand> master[1-4].teeworlds.com have some rules that work fine
18:45 < rand> it may lead to masterserver battle (as ddos with testrace/blocker/whatever)
18:46 < rand> ok, this sounds like a bad idea…