05:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki i mean i posted this pic about you months ago 10:30 <+ChillerDragon> ah thats where i know it from 10:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah i dont remember 13:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] ChillerDragon: 13:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] go wire 17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] What was the command to stop ignore clantag on friendlist? 17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] Ok got it 17:56 <+ChillerDragon> does someone know how the internet works? :D i have a 10mbit connection and i wonder if i should upgrade. I do not mind waiting a bit longer on a git clone i just care about smooth tw expirience but I assume that is unrelated to the bandwith. Is that correct? 17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah 10mbit should be enough 17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] cable internet has disadvantages 17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] DSL and fiber are probs more stable ping jitter wise 17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] tho in the end it can also be related to the nodes the packet go through 18:00 <+ChillerDragon> yea i thought so thanks 18:00 <+ChillerDragon> still do not know the difference between cable DSL and fiber should probably look it up thought its all the same 18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] is ur upload also 10mb 18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber has insanely way lower latency and allows for bigger speeds 18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] DSL is copper 18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber runs through light 18:02 <+fstd> why would fiber have lower latency 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] copper is just as fast 18:03 <+ChillerDragon> my upload is 1 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe even a bit faster 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] wat 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] also, most DSL connections end in a fiber spreader anyway 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] chiller ur upload speed is the bottleneck 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] its only from the next thing in ur street to ur house 18:03 <+fstd> the issue with "cable" is that it's usually a shared segment btw 18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] 1mbit should be enough tho 18:03 <+ChillerDragon> i need more than 1mbit to send tw packets? 18:03 <+fstd> so you're not 'alone' on your link 18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki the main reason why fiber is "better" is efficiency 18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe if u only used tw in ur whole internet and dont have any other app 18:04 <+ChillerDragon> i currently have a few lag spikes but those to not get better or worse when i for example watch a yt video 18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] 1mb may be engough 18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] but i doubt 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] i experienced 10mb adsl with 0.5mb upload speed 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i assumed no other apps ofc 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] it was horrible 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] switch to fiber asap 18:05 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: how many machines are on your network? 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber probs has better routing too 18:05 <+fstd> including wifi clients 18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] since its newer installation 18:05 <+ChillerDragon> my test laptop and i also connected my phone to watch videos and stresstest 18:05 <+ChillerDragon> thats it 18:05 <+fstd> fiber always needs to be converted to electricity and then back in order to do anything with it routing-wise 18:06 <+ChillerDragon> i should have fiber i think 18:06 <+ChillerDragon> its not that i can choose 18:06 <+fstd> those conversions aren't instantaneous 18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] most internet websites allow u to put a address 18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] to check 18:06 <+ChillerDragon> the only thing i could do is pay more and get more up and down bandwith 18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] here actually fiber is cheaper than dsl 18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber doesn't run at full speed of light 18:06 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: no roomies or girlfriends or hidden machines pulling windows updates etc at all? 18:06 <+ChillerDragon> no 18:06 <+ChillerDragon> empty flat with a router and a laptop 18:07 <+fstd> and does it happen with any tw server (of about equal ping)? 18:07 <+ChillerDragon> also ouch for pointing out that im single 18:07 <+fstd> hey i left open the possibility of a boyfriend 18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber goes at around 70-80% of speed of light, depends of the fiber type, the quality of the cable etc.. 18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] Issue with adsl is copper corrosion 18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] well the light refracts inside the cable so its not straight 18:08 <+fstd> fiber goes at the speed of light in fiber 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki monomode goes straight in theory 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i guess 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] The latency actually is mostly the same in most european cities as the cabinets themselves are usually connected with fiber already. Only the last run is on copper 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont know much 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] i jsut did 10 min research 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd no 18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] it has a % of speed, not at full speed of light 18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] when i had adsl i didnt have 1ms when doing the speedtest 18:09 <+fstd> ReiTW: do by 'full speed of light' you mean the speed of light in fiber or the speed of light in a vacuum? 18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] in fiber 18:10 <+fstd> what causes the extra delay then? 18:10 <+ChillerDragon> yea not very pleasing to test on this device fstd 18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well thats an oxymoron, by definition light goes 100% the speed of light in fiber in fiber 18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] :monkaS: 18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] well you understood me, it doesn't go at full speed of light because of the refraction index 18:10 <+fstd> maybe it's because light go straight but cable go ~~~ 18:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] cable go brrr 18:11 <+fstd> that too 18:11 <+fstd> especially with construction equipment involved 18:11 <+ChillerDragon> yea i guess i will not upgrade if this should/could work and try to save some monthly coin 18:12 <+fstd> ReiTW: actually i didn't understand you 18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] is fiber actually more costly to u chiller? 18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] here is not the case 18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] I’d pay alot to upgrade from 50m copper to fiber 18:12 <+fstd> ReiTW: you acknowledge that there is a difference between c_0 and c_fiber 18:12 <+ChillerDragon> idk about the fiber thingy 18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki in germany fiber is like non existent xD 18:12 <+ChillerDragon> i do not think i can choose that 18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 18:12 <+fstd> (whch is due to its refractive index) 18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] in spain actually its everywhere 18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] the only good thing 18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: sure, that's what I say 18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] Torino has 90% fiber coverage nowadays, my building is in the unlucky 10% that only gets fibre to the cabinet 18:13 <+ChillerDragon> @Ryozuki the only thing i can change is buy more bandwith 18:13 <+fstd> ReiTW: then you should notice that you're applying the refractive index twice 18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] Full ftth or with copper/twisted pair for the last stretch? 18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 u could create a house anywhere outside germany and still get fiber before me 18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] i bet 18:14 <+fstd> ReiTW: you should probably forget the notion of a "full speed of light", that's counterproductive and misleading 18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] :monkalaugh: 18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/811646833600233472/unknown.png 18:14 <+fstd> there's just "the speed of light in $medium" 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki i'm more jealous about ur upload xD 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] well not rly lol fstd, you only take the value of the speed of light in a vacuum and divide it by the refraction index of the material 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] i'd love to have (almost) symmetrical down/up 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] its usually simmetrical 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah, and at the end the result is: it doesn't go at th e same speed, sure it's not the same environment 18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: technically we could do full speed of light communication in space between satellites 😄 18:15 <+fstd> ReiTW: so that way we arrive at c_fiber, right? 18:15 <+fstd> now you're saying the speed of light in fiber is slower than c_fiber. 18:16 <+fstd> find the flaw 18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm only saying that speed of light depends of the refraction index xdd, what's difficult to understand, I'm studying networking and telecommunication at school 18:16 <+fstd> bbl 18:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] (c_fiber already accounts for the refractive index) 18:17 <+fstd> ReiTW: then we're not in disagreement 18:17 * ChillerDragon yo btw fstd u can ping discord ppl by prefixing the name with q 18:17 <+fstd> (you did say something different though) 18:17 * ChillerDragon @ * 18:17 <+fstd> q@*ChillerDragon ty 18:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] (So saying light travels slower than c_fiber in fiber due to the refractive index of the material is an oxymoron) 18:17 <+ChillerDragon> no q :D 18:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mentionned the refraction index btw, so I didn't say smth different 18:17 <+ChillerDragon> thats was typo :D 18:18 <+ChillerDragon> ong troll 18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] fiber travels at the light of speed. 18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] Wait that’s illegal 18:18 <+ChillerDragon> do you guys know how i can find out of i have fiber? 18:18 <+fstd> ReiTW: maybe re-read the conversation then. anyway if you're studying telecommunications, it's even more important that you don't use terminology like "the full speed of light" 18:19 <+ChillerDragon> im pretty sure i have it but idk 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] try to cut your cable 18:19 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: look at your wall socket? 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] 4head 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] Chiller ask your provider. 10M is very well within the capabilities of copper even copper all the way from the dslam 18:19 <+ChillerDragon> its 3 long holes 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] chiller most internet websites allow u to search ur address 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] ChillerDragon do u know ur modem? 18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] and check 18:20 <+ChillerDragon> modem is in my router right? its some fritzbox 18:20 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: usually it's either a normal-ass telephone connctor, or something that resembles a network cable plug 18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] then just login it 18:20 <+fstd> 3 long holes sounds..weird 18:20 <+ChillerDragon> no network cable 18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: well it's still usable, i'm always bad to explain, if I use it it's to mention the speed of light in vacuum 18:20 <+ChillerDragon> im in jupstar :D 18:21 <+ChillerDragon> it says DSL 18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] ok 18:21 <+fstd> ReiTW: let's call it c0, that's shorter anyway 18:21 <+fstd> bbl 18:21 * fstd got a CNC mill to build 18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah c0 is fine too 18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] If it says dsl it’s at the very least not FTTH 18:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] what does bbl mean 18:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] So atleast the last stretch is copper which limits you to about 100 mbit depending on how close the cabinet is, the condition of the copper and whether the cabinet itself is connected with fiber 18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe a rat ate urcopper 18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] :monkalaugh: 18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] :justatest: 18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] haha 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] corrosion plays with the quality of the link 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] for adsl etc.. 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] does fiber degrade over time? 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] i get 225 / 45 with DSL, and probs never will get more xd 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well everything degrades at some rate 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] ofc 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i mean in a way that matters 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] With fiber it should be completely negligible though 18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] plastic degrades, but it takes millions 18:24 <+ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1613582684.png thats the thing fstd :D 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] Atleast in your lifetime ;P 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well with fiber you have more problems when it's about a site under construction, someone digging & cutting a cable 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah splicing together fibre optic connections is not easy 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] or if a rat eats ur cable 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] :poggers: 18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] but if it's well done there's some things used to tell that if they dig more there's cables below 18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] Don't really remember what are those, I think it's some sort of grids 18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] i bet in spain they dont do that 18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] they just put it 30cm in the ground 18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] Already happened here that a cable got cut here at my job 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] at mine too 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] here not 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] and they did construction not long ago 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] catalonia grade cable best 18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] or some idiot bends it 90 degrees 18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] We lost the chile server for such a long time when they severed a fibre 18:28 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: that's a normal-ass telephone socket, aka TAE (Telefonanschlusseinheit) 18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think at one time the entirety of south america had major internet outages when they severed a major link to america during construction 18:28 <+fstd> (which doesn't mean they still run analog telephony on it) 18:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] lmao 18:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] They phased it out in north italy mostly. Phones are also thru some new digital thing, never looked into it tho 18:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] Who even uses a home phone anymore 18:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] everyone who has a business 18:30 <+fstd> yeah the largest carrier in germany has too (not sure about others) 18:31 <+fstd> no more DSL splitter required 18:31 <+fstd> and with VDSL2 and vectoring you get north of 200 Mbit/s 18:31 <+fstd> i think supervectoring is the new hip thing in the DSL world 18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] north? 18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] You need to be very lucky to be close enough to get anywhere close to that usually, no? 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] Idk why but southern italy seems to still rock analog telephony 18:32 <+fstd> yeah true, i think the max speed is only over 100m or so 18:32 <+fstd> let's check 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] hey dev i have error with compile like that how fixed it xD? 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://prnt.sc/zvnn6s 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] i do get 225 with supervectoring 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] i can also look up the length wait 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe they dont want to invest 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: well normally the distance depends of the frequency used 18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] Wow 225m jeez 18:32 <+fstd> Learath2: Huawai sez 300 Mbit/s within 300m 18:33 <+ChillerDragon> so could it be fiber fstd ? 18:33 <+fstd> ReiTW: DSL modems typically evaluate the line, called training 18:33 <+fstd> ChillerDragon: no 18:33 <+fstd> well 18:33 <+fstd> not from your home anyway 18:33 <+ChillerDragon> oh scam i think i was told its fiber 18:33 <+fstd> probably fiber starting from the box at the street 18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] 300m is much better than I expected, they really got nice improvements 18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] Squeezing the last bit of performance from the ancient lines 18:33 <+fstd> but it's not like copper is bad 18:34 <+fstd> or fiber necessarily FaStEr BeCoZ LiGhT fAsT 18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] 🥴 18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] well it says 269 meters, but dunno if thats correct xd 18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/811651778071887882/unknown.png 18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Queen Julia 5th you forgot to implement a function you declared in the class CServer 18:34 <+fstd> the signals through copper are about the same speed, maybe evena bit faster 18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah yes german text 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] should i do it in src/engine/server.h? 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: yeah the issue with copper is that the lines are ancient and you might aswell lay fiber if you bother digging it out 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] And you can do far north of 300Mbit on a single fibre 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] how can u get so much 18:35 <+fstd> idk probably too expensive, i mean you'd have to rewire every house 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] on dsl 18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Queen Julia 5th well idk where you declared it 18:36 <+fstd> and terminate, install equipment maybe 18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] Apparently supervectoring, I didn’t know it was that good either 18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] in my city they do that 18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] in 10 years u need it anyways 18:36 * fstd gets about 80 Mbit/s over normal-vectoring VDSL 18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] tbh its just telekoms approach to get the last bit of money out of DSL xd 18:36 <+fstd> 90 if i allow for more errors 18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] and they dont get money for old cables 18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] fstd: turkey started rewiring all the way into the apartment in 2015, but they slowed it waaaaaay down when the turkish economy went to shit 18:37 <+fstd> shame 18:38 <+fstd> my street actuallygot some fiber runs last year 18:38 <+fstd> but they didn't do the houses 18:38 <+fstd> i guess you could pay it out of your own pocket if you really want teh gigabits 18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] In france fiber is still in deployment, just people in countryside doesn't have the luck for now 18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] But some countries decided to deploy 5G in countryside first to get more clients 18:38 <+fstd> but well, i only max out my connection when torrenting anyway, and i don't torrent that much 18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] here they did do it in the house for 200€ or so 18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] instead of 20k 18:38 <+fstd> and 80 Mbit/s seems plenty 18:39 <+fstd> knowing what 33.6 kbit/s felt like, even more so 18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] I asked in turkey they quoted me around 9k€ for a fiber run right now 18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] wow thats cheap. i looked it up, and it costs around 10k, if i could convince my neighbours its like 1k per neighbour or smth xd 18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] y 18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] The other solution is to petition all the neighbours, collect signatures and you get free fiber, within 10 years... 18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] and u have to make a deal for 2 years 18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] after that u can change isp 18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] but they did it in every street thats why it was so cheap 18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] @jao at 200€ I’d guess the fiber is already in your street so you need a shorter run 18:41 * fstd 'd like to be an ISP himself 18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] nope 18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] they had to do the entire village 18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] Oh or maybe government funds some of it, that could also work, oooor huge demand maybe could cover the cost 18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] both 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] The problem running anything underground is it’s major disruption, so no one really wants to do it unless $$$ ;P 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] and a lot competition here 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] 4 isps doing it 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] in some streets they put 2 different cables from 2 isps 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] because the first 2 years the isps have exlusive use for the cable 18:43 <+fstd> Learath2: there's actually a nice rather new method, one sec 18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Mh that’s nice. In italy we get 2 major players + 4 isps running on the other 2s lines 18:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] Actually 3 major players but 1 of them owns the entirety of the last stretch so they make life hell for the competition 18:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] Privatization of telecommunications is the most retarded decision a government can make 18:45 <+fstd> Learath2: can't find the vid, but the general idea is that they have a small vehicle with the cable spool, and the vehicle has a mill of sorts in front of it, and a glue/resin dispenser at the rear. they'd drive along the curb, cutting a slot in it, putting the cable in, and sealing it back up in one go 18:45 <+fstd> which is far cheaper becoz no real digging 18:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] Ah running the cable un the curb sounds like a great idea 18:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I guess the tradeoff is that the cable is in a more vulnerable position, right? 18:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] isnt there a min height u have to do 18:47 <+fstd> yeah but i've rarely seen a broken curb. but what they probably had to engineer around was trapped moisture expanding when it's freezing 18:48 <+fstd> which some soft cable sheath should deal with tho 18:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] didnt they put bigger empty tubes in the ground first so when theres some new technology they can just use them again instead of digging again? 18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] wtf 18:51 <+fstd> i guess in a perfect world that would have been done :) 18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] is it activated already jao? 18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] im pretty sure they did it in my area 18:51 <+fstd> in the real world they probably chose the smallest pipes and tubings they can get away with becoz short-term savings 18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] how would u get the cable through it 18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] its heavy and the tube isnt straight 18:51 <+fstd> you feed something more maneuverable first 18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] u cant bend it easily 18:51 <+fstd> and use that to pull the real cable 18:52 <+fstd> if you're fancy you send a robot vehicle down the tube :) 18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] 🥴 18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] good luck 18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] they just push the cable through. 18:52 <+fstd> i mean that works for plumbers in hella filthy clogged pipes 18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] did they dig open every meter overground?? 18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] they make 2 holes and shoot between them 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] and then pull the cable 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] but u cant do that for long distances 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] yea ik 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] every 20m u need a hole 18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] and u cant go in circles 18:53 <+fstd> oh, right, there's the feed-a-light-pilot-string-with-air-drafts way 18:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] is the company WEMAG jao? 18:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 18:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] meh 18:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] all manual labour is done here and everyone is just waiting for activation. 18:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] but they dont say anything 18:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe they need to patch the cables 18:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] but its been about 2 months now 18:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] it takes a while 19:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] I wonder if the pull-cord technique would work for the massive underground cables too 19:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] with strong hook ye 19:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] I guess the cord would have to be very thick so when you pull the tension doesn’t break it if it snags 19:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] In other news, I just successfully calculated the jacobian for a quadruple integral. I have never done anything so painful by hand in my life 19:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well I guess it’s the jacobian of the bijection for the change of variables but all the same, absolute pain 19:52 * fstd incepts a sudden desire to play nethack into Learath2's mind 19:52 * fstd clears throat 19:52 <+fstd> i said 19:52 <+fstd> @Learath2's mind 19:56 <+fstd> i mean heinrich5991's mind 19:57 <+fstd> fine, i'll do it myself. 21:12 <+Learath2> fstd: I'll play one, was cooking :P 21:12 <+fstd> cool