01:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] they are updating github design 01:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/720418223429779527/unknown.png 02:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] discovered a bug, not a major one cuz it only works kick command 02:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] send rcon so i can exploit bug 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] if i connect to a empty server i get ID 0 and when i connect my dummy it gets ID 1, when I kick him with command "kick 1" it disconnects the tee but my client still thinks my dummy is in the game, then when somebody connects and gets my dummy original ID which was 1 and that person gets tagged in msg, the msg will highlight for me 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/720438641146724392/unknown_1.png 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] it can be easily recreated 02:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats not bug with kick 02:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats bug with client 03:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] @jao's hairy kebab 07:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Thoughts on making weak / strong hook map specific? (If possible) I believe weak hook degrades the quality of Teeworlds, newer players don't even know it exists, hell, even some people that have been playing for quite some time don't. Some maps require it, but why should it be forced to be a mechanic on all maps that don't? 07:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's almost an invisible mechanic, and it makes general gameplay feel tedious. The simple act of trying to toss a tee is affected by it. Newer players are greatly impacted by it, and they don't even know it. 07:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] it is definitely possible from a code perspective at least 07:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] Making every tee have strong hook 100% of the time, besides on maps that absolutely require it, would just all around be a quality improvement IMO. 07:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] The game would feel better to play, there's absolutely no reason to keep a bug that degrades the quality of the game on all of the maps that don't even require it. 07:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, there's one reason I could think of, it would become even more unknown, because it wouldn't exist on a majority of the maps... But, there could be some kind of notification that the mechanic exists via a server message when the map is loaded? Making this change would completely remove the need for /spec .. And I guess would make a lot of the ranks slightly easier to beat... But, is that so bad? For the overall improvement of the game 07:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, there are two reasons I could think of, it would become even more unknown, because it wouldn't exist on a majority of the maps... But, there could be some kind of notification that the mechanic exists via a server message when the map is loaded? Making this change would completely remove the need for /spec .. And I guess would make a lot of the ranks slightly easier to beat... But, is that so bad? For the overall improvement of the gam 07:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] Some maps have ranks that haven't been beaten in a long time anyways, I feel like the boost of competition would be a welcome change. Maybe it'd make some people want to try a little harder, knowing they wont have awkward RNG on their hooks. 07:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yes, weak / strong hook is something you can learn and master. You can study maps and figure out which part the person with strong should get, but it's absolutely not a fun mechanic to have in the game in general. 07:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] i sometimes see people switching tees / using /spec to try to remove weakhook and that feels like something that people shouldnt have to do 07:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, it feels like a very barbaric system, and it's something I think ddnet could improve upon greatly, it's a very massive quality of life change, super important IMO. 07:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] There are so many toss parts that I see noobs struggling with, and a majority of it is the fact that weak hook exists. It makes it so much harder to learn. A lot of the older players don't realize how obnoxious it is. 07:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] keep /spec tho 07:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] i think ur kinda overexaggerating the severity of having a weak hook but i do agree it should be changed / altered for newer maps 07:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm really not, you think that because you're so used to it, but it really does affect newer players, quite a bit. 07:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] And the general gameplay feel, it's very obnoxious to have the feel of your hook vary because of the order of which you joined / killed 07:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Also, /spec wouldn't exist on any map that doesn't absolutely require weak hook, everyone having strong hook makes it a worthless command. The sole reason for /spec is to give someone strong hook. 07:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] Instead of it being used to give strong hook to people to make parts easier / possible, it'd be used to give people weak hook to make certain parts possible. 07:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] It'd be a cleaner implementation of the system, while also greatly improving the quality of gameplay on all other maps. 07:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] no /spec is good in t0 to not be blocky too 07:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's a very cheatable mechanic on maps, we can't allow it to be possible on every single one. I guess the current possible /spec maps could still keep it.. But I feel like most people would opt to just have strong hook at all times, instead of /spec to make space for other people. 07:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] DDrace isn't gores, /spec to make room for people isn't very important. 07:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol uve obviously never played blocky-ish maps 07:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] ppl will get pissed if u remove /spec anyways so imo better to keep 07:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] [3:08 AM] qshar: The best explanation was something like this: When you race and you feel that you didn't warm up - you just have the weak hook. When you save players like a pro, that means you have strong hook 07:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] its pretty subtle^ 07:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] but it makes a diference 07:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] Questioning my experience is cute, but yea, I don't think having /spec as a mechanic to cater to large groups in ddrace shouldn't really be encouraged. 07:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] Again, I don't think it really matters if maps like Aim kept /spec 07:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol what? t0 on ger is always one of the top servers 07:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] But the core reason for it being there is for strong hook, and that wouldn't be a thing anymore, with this change 07:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] And a vast majority of maps don't even have /spec 07:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] i also really notice weak hook when playing on the ddnet fng servers, but only because im used to everyone having strong hook 07:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] i never noticed it at all before making the fix 08:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] Weak is cool 08:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm sure it feels frustrating to a majority of players, it's a bug after all. 08:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's not even a fun bug either, not something that has potential to improve the game, like bunnyhopping in half life 08:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] Remove fatigue from sprinting in cod, it would change negatively 08:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] You're defending a mechanic that isn't part of the core gameplay, it's just a nuisance on the feel of the game. 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] fatigue is there on purpose to make sprinting less op right 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] Correct 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] weak isnt there to make strong feel less op 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] its just physics bug 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] I like it 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] That's fine 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] It adds spice to the game 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] Like 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] You are the alpha tee if you have strong on all 08:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] :kek: 08:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont know enough about ddrace to say here but i can say removing it from fng was a positive change 08:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] Maybe call it alpha and beta tee instead of strong and weak :kek: 08:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] Nice meme lol, but yea, I don't think it's good for a lot of reasons, I've already mentioned most of them 08:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] People that have been playing for a long time got used to it, so they don't really mind it anymore, but newer players will feel it, and the game will feel worse to play to them, and they won't even know it's because of this stupid bug that has been plaguing the game since it started, and the justification for keeping it is because SOME maps requires it.. Well, why not let those maps keep the ability to switch to it, instead of having it on a 08:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] People that have been playing for a long time got used to it, so they don't really mind it anymore, but newer players will feel it, and the game will feel worse to play to them, and they won't even know it's because of this stupid bug that has been plaguing the game since it started, and the justification for keeping it is because SOME maps require it.. Well, why not let those maps keep the ability to switch to it, instead of having it on al 08:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] The problem is more that we dont know how to find maps that need it so all old maps would have to keep the old mechanic 08:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] what would make a map require weak hook? 08:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] To my knowledge, there's a very small amount of maps that actually require it 08:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] And, I think that risk is fine? People will report the map as being broken, and it'll be flagged for this new system. 08:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] There are some drag parts I was shown 08:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] We've already had issues with maps being broke in the past, it'd be the same thing 08:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well those were unpresicted, this would break some maps and we'd most likely not lnow for months 08:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] If we reach out and figure out which maps require it before pushing the update, that'd be even better 08:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] are the broken maps literaly impossible without weak hook 08:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm sure some people have some memory of which maps need it 08:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] For the stopper changes we just ran a script to find all the maps that neeed updating 08:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] or possibly it could be added as an opt-in rather than opt-out, so that only new maps / maps that are fixed manually will have strong for all 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's such a stupidly low amount of maps that require it, I don't think keeping this mechanic JUST for those maps is a good thing 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] is it easy to figure out if a map needs weak 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think opt in would make the confusion worse, no? 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i didnt know 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] > It's such a stupidly low amount of maps that require it, 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i didnt know 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] > It's such a stupidly low amount of maps that require it, 08:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] when i typed it 08:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] I can't even count the amount of maps that require weak hook on 1 hand 08:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] Also btw its not exactly trivial to get rid of weak hook, but I have a solid ish idea 08:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] From what I've played 08:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] ud have to have played thru every single map to know right? 08:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah the fix for weak hook involves changing a good amount of stuff across several files 08:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] Each tick youll have to compensate for the weaker tees 08:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] Correct, but ddnet doesn't have every map that I've played that requires it lol I don't remember their names, which is the main issue lol 08:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] I hope a second pass is not necwssary because that would be quite horrible for performance 08:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont remember exactly what the fix was 08:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] something with changing saturatedadd 08:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think there is a fix pr'd on vanilla actually and heinrich commented on it the actual proper way to fix it 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] "Questioning my experience is cute, but yea," 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] cute 😳 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] :kek: 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] you cant remove spec, its simply a great tool when you race a map with 20 ppl, or semi gores maps that ddnet has 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] you play always on team so u dont know 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] louis triggered me a bit with his usual reminder of his existence :kek: 08:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah spec I think we'll keep 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] also iwouldnt change weak strong hook, deen already did it and reversed it in the future cuz lot of ppl complained 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] Most maps don't have /spec but yea 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] There is sometimes no way to get out of the way in maps and it just angers everyone 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] Why did they complain, ryo? 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] i think the fixes were mostly in tick() and stuff and didnt change the netcode at all 08:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont know, i wasnt there, but deen always says it 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] That sounds insane lol, why would people argue for a bug that makes the gameplay feel shitty 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] did u fail a map today due to weak hook? 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think the fix deen applied wasnt actually remoivng it completely but making weak and strong more similar 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] No, it's just something that's been on my mind for years 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] it also involved adding a PostTick function 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] but not an extra loop afaik 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] just ask qshar how to fix it 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] ye 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] @deen why didnt people like removing the weak? 08:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] on servers with the fix by qshar weak hook is entirely removed 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] Also I see noobs not understanding what makes their hook not pull as good as it should, and it really fucks them over 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] It'd be way easier to just fix the problem, and not try and teach them a stupid bug that shouldn't exist 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] Ye its game mechanic, just ask lol 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] A lot of things fuck noobs over in ddrace :( 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] honestly, if i would care about noobs, strong weak hook is t he last of the things i would care, they dont even have a tutorial xddd 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] mostly the ddrace part 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's just a very harsh experience learning ddrace 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] the servers are the worst 08:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] @abcqwerty u 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] In general though, do we all actually like weak hook? Really? 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] u should have a server that only has easy maps 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] A lot of things fuck ppl in dark souls 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] i like it tho 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] Deal with it 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] the hard way to learn ddnet 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] makes u proud 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] true 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] but took me a month 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] There is big learning curve 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] to realize that u could change maps 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] there is a lot of time from when you start to the first time you finish a map 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] I dong actually mind weak hook that much but it's been 10 years. I won't pretend it was essy to get used to 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] Sure, it has some slight charm, we all had to learn it, sure... But is it really good to keep it, is that added randomness for noobs a good thing? I don't think so 08:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] It changes how you fly it changes how you throw it changes how you drag 08:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] well its not randomness as is cuz its deterministic who has it and who doesnt, wrong term 08:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] I tried to get a couple friends to play the game and they had trouble getting one throw consistent 08:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] Changes so much, and learning that is so fucking stupid for newer players, they just think they messed up, when in reality, it's a bug making it way harder than it should be 08:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] if we do this we should know about maps with weak hook, or konsti will raid the discord 08:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] Maybe an indicator to show who has strong could help, but I dont think we should make this bug a feature 08:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] add a server that only has mud and just2easy on it 08:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] its not even a bug for vanilla its just not needed in ddr 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] what 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/2148 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's a very negative bug, I don't like the effect it has on gameplay, I'd rather it be gone, than embraced. I feel like newer players would very much prefer it not existing 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] nah it was originally added to vanilla to give positive feedback loops towards top players 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] wrong 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] Negative for you 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] huh 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol 09:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] whats the reason then 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] lmao 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] sad tw fix 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/720533023560433664/unknown.png 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] the reason is that its a physics bug 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] im p sure it was on purpose 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] like heinrich says in this link 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] wat 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] okay, louis is 100% trolling lol 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] how tf is strong/weak a bug in original tw 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] how do you even make that a bug 09:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] read the image 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] he explains why 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] it seems like something that would purposefully be in 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] and yet it isnt 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] @louis it wasnt on purpose, your murican brain can do more than this, its a bug that turned into a feature in ddrace, ddrace is basically made out of a bug that alllows you to hook in corners, it was never intended either 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] stop racism pls 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] :greenthing: 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] louis its not on purpose wtf 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] @onby u 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] i always thought it was 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] guess i learned smth today 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] u 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] ```Depending on the order of character spawn, players have stronger or weaker hook on each others. 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] The reason is that velocity calculation of characters is order dependent: 09:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] Example: player a has spawned before player b and b is hooking a: 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] a.vel *= friction 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] ... 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] b.vel *= friction 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] b.vel += hookforce 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] a.vel += hookforce 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] b has spawned before a: 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] b.vel *= friction 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] b.vel += hookforce 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] a.vel += hookforce 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] ... 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] a.vel *= friction``` 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] This is a bug that is very expected btw, it's actually very hard to balance these things when you are working with a finite timestep 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Do we actually need to make the game even dumber? 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, actually.. What? Teeworlds isn't a dumb game 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean if the game is 1000iq now it'd be 990iq 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Like spikes wont kill you if you politely say no? 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's actually one of the hardest games I've ever seen to get into 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] tw is good 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] cant u just calculate it from whoever is hooking to the hookee 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yes a subtle game mechanic vs remove spikes 09:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] what if both tees hook eachother 09:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] Talk about hyperbole 09:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] just calculate it twice 09:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] @louis man... idk if u want to show of stupidness on purpose, the calculation is explained by heinrich in the image i just sent 09:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] but ye continue with ur 5 grade math 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] @noby exactly the problem fhats why this might require a second physics pass 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] 2+2 is 4 thats quick math 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki stfu dont call me a 5th grader when ur maturity level is even lower than that 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] no its 5 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] :poggers: 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] Stop trolling in this channel lol 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] First you go over all the tees and distribute the forces. Then you go over and cap them 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] :poggers: i :poggers: am :poggers: louis 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] ur funny bro 09:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats what the posttick thing is for i think 09:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah might have a bit more of a performance impact then intended 09:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] whys that 09:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] An entire second pass through? 09:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] no its just 09:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] Atleast the second pass is quite cheap 09:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] after core.tick() doing core.posttick() which is only 2line function 09:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] it doesnt look like much overhead to me atall compared to some of the other stuff that runs every tick for every character 09:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean the tick is already O(n^2) so it probably wont be noticable 09:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] ive tried profiling my server in a couple ways and it seems negligible 09:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe its different with 64pl server compared to 32 idk 09:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] but probably not since they do it on kog too 09:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] Anyway implementation is not thr main issue here 09:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] Hm, maybe we should just make it, deploy it and test it 09:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] I wonder if it creates r1s that wont be beatable though and I wonder how it affects hookfly 09:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] it probably would on maps like just triple fly 09:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] or just rocketfly, etc 09:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] I feel like it wouldn't be an issue 09:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] would only be if for some reason it didnt work out and a revert would happen 09:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] test hookfly on a server that already has the fix maybe 09:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah but a revert then would nuke all ranks that were done on the new patch 09:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] do the patch on half the servers and show a message that says it may be reverted/ranks deleted 09:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] I highly doubt hookfly would feel much different with both strong hook, maybe you'd have to press a direction a little more or less, but it's a very adjustable mechanic 09:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] Or adjust your hook duration 09:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] have u tried 09:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] Nope, but I'll try it now, if anyone wants to test it on noby's fng server with me lol 09:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] no weak would make a shit ton of r1s pop up btw 09:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] can u do it with dummy 09:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do this type of things in other games all the time. 09:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do these type of things in other games all the time. 09:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do these types of things in other games all the time. 09:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] its hard to test hookfly correctly w dummy 09:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] tbh i kinda don't want this to happen cause reverse speedfly is cool but itd make everything easier 09:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, I tested it on fng just now, feels the same 09:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] nice 09:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] We should probably ask deen what complaints people were making about it 09:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] To see if it wasn't just a bunch of nonsense 09:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] are there parts that literally cant be done with strong 09:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes bruh 09:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] like in 3 random oldschool maps 09:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Reverse speedfly is for glitching through things lol 09:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] exactly 09:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] huh 09:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVMx-Sk3bs 09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] lool wut 09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] hax 09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] is it related to weak hook tho? 09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yes, but the time was removed for this, and the map was fixed 09:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] why is it related to weak hook 09:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] I've never done this before, but I assume the tee on the bottom hooks with weak hook 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's a fairly pointless mechanic, people just use it to cheat specific maps 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] i see ppl do it sometimes but the othe r way 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] going upwards lol 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, speedfly 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] is it another one thats hard to test with dummy 09:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't use dummy often, ask murpi / nexus 09:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] @murpi 09:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] I can probably do it on your server, but the hammer needs to not be powerful lol 09:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] go fng small server i can remove the hammer tuning there 09:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] 9:21 AM] louis: no weak would make a shit ton of r1s pop up btw 09:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] [9:21 AM] onby: can u do it with dummy 09:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] [9:21 AM] Skeith: Perfectly fine IMO, brings new competition, people do these types of things in other games all the time. 09:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] that kinda goes against the whole policy of the last 8 (?) years 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] deen always tried to avoid any change that would make previous runs outdated as much as possible 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] and that one change literally makes most of the previous run biased 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] It'd be slightly better times, times that people would've gotten regardless, in reality, no? 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] Or damn close 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] also people didnt rly complain because of the mechanic being gone but because the fix was bad, u just had strong for movements but for hammerfly and such u still had weak 09:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] I see 09:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] which made it impossible to know which one should be driving 09:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] is it the same fix i have 09:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] dunno 09:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] iirc it was a fix by fisted 10:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, deen added the change once already, no? It just wasn't well implemented 10:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] So he was willing to slightly mess up the times before, the times really wont improve THAT much due to the change anyways, I genuinely think if people beat the times with 2 strong hooks, then they could've done it without as well. 10:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] But the quality of gameplay will go up by quite a bit, it's very much worth changing it imo 10:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] well it was 50 years ago 10:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol 10:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] it fucks up thousands more ranks rn 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] the more time goes on the worse it is to make mechanic changes 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea.. 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont see noobs complaining about hook 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] but i prsonally dont mind anyway the hammer change fucked everything 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] already 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] i would even be for a full reset with all these changes 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's a fundamental flaw with the game though, I think it'd still be worth doing now 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] and accounts 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] but thats in a parallel world 10:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] :greenthing: 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] there are 4,157,174 ranks :greenthing: 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] Fuck em :greenthing: 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] well to be fair not even 1% of them are meant to be competitive 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] but ye 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] still unfair to ppl who spent hours runnign a map 10:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] hooking through corners is a fundamental flaw of the game, lets change it too 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] woke 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] in 0.7 that almost got fixed i thikn 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] or it even did 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] in vanilla 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] But it's a core part of ddrace, unlike this bug, that really just makes the game feel like trash. 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] there is discussion 10:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki thats usually coz they are just not aware of the difference, its a huge pain when they try to learn driving and similar stuff with hammerfly, since its a lot harder with weak hook even tho they aren't doing anything wrong 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] noobs also dont know they can hook through acorner :greenthing: 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] well thats subjective @Skeith 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] strong weak hook can be seen as a core part of ddrace always as its been there literally forever 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] weak hook strong hook are part of core ddrace 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] I suppose, but that's subjective to old players, mostly. Newer players wont like the mechanic if they KNEW it existed, but they don't.. xd 10:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] it is annoying at times but why could it not been seen as a mechanic? 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] its not even a random thing 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] u can control it with team 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah its just something that u have to take into account 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] when playing 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yes, we know that. 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] New players don't, and it's silly we have to explain the bug to people so they can play normally 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] because its a bug thats been fixed on other servers 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] hows that an argument 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] you consider it a bug 10:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] but in ddrace its a feature 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] if other servers remove speedfly we should remove it too? 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] you can do what you want in your mod 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] i mean kog 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] is a race type server 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] for gores 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] they do their thing 10:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] we do our 10:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't like the idea of clinging to a bug that negatively impacts pretty much everyone, it's just something we've learned to play with, it's not fun.. Lets not pretend like it is, nor is it good game design.. It doesn't really add meaningful depth to the game, we're dumbass old farts that should probably think about newer players 10:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah its kind of a bad game design thing 10:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] but that doesnt mean its not core part of ddrace lol 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] (and being core part of ddrace doesnt mean it should never be changed either) 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] can someone show me a map that cant be done without weak 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] At the end of the day, a better server would have this fix. 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti knows some 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] at the end of the day its not as easy as u make it sound 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] and it has collateral 10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] Mild 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] I've gone through the negatives in my big rant 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] that uve minimized big time 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] Have I? 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] 10:06 AM] Skeith: So he was willing to slightly mess up the times before, the times really wont improve THAT much due to the change anyways, I genuinely think if people beat the times with 2 strong hooks, then they could've done it without as well. 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] for instance that 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] is just plain wrong 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] if u get 10:00 race time and they get 10:01 with both strong 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] I've been talking about it for awhile now, scroll up lol 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] they would not have beaten the 10:00 10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] with that run 10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] which is unfair 10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] and that 10:00 run would have be faster 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] and if theres a slight different mechanic with the fix 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] the community backlash will be rly bad 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's exhausting to argue about times like that, it's kind of greedy to not want this change because you had some times that you're scared some people will come through and beat you by a few seconds. 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] as for u fucking up ranks doesnt matter but for all the ppl that spent time making them its kinda lame 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] You lose the times eventually, it happens. Just do it again, your times wont remain forever. 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] ive literally said im not against the change at that point 10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] im jsut being realisitc 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] and not trying to have fake blinkers 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] pretending everything is fine 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] whats wrong with the idea of putting strong hook on only some of the servers with a label that its just an experiment and the ranks may not stay 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] ur arguing like a politican 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] politician 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, I'm just trying to voice some reason for a mechanic that is really detrimental to the game, I get your point 10:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] I want what's best for the game is all, I'd argue for the change even if I had 50 rank 1s 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah yeah 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] but when u wanna push a change u have to think outside of ur own perspective 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] This really just affects the gameplay that much, it makes it unfun for us old farts, having to deal with managing weak / strong.. And newer players are actually just suffering because of it, it feels bad all around. 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] and think how negatively it could actually impact everyone else 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] with a subjective mindset 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] i.e coz u dont mind losing ur r1s doesnt mean other ppl who spent time doing them will not mind eithe 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] r 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] wouldnt the change roughly help everyone equally 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] @onby in the future yes but retroactively not 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] oh nvm 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] It would, it's just mess up people with good times, they could 100% retake them, but yea 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] It would, it'd just mess up people with good times, they could 100% retake them, but yea 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] You gotta put in the effort again, which is annoying, for sure. 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] note that ranks on maps aren't generally as close a 1 second 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] couldnt u make a similar type of argument about changes like the auto hammer 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] no rank will ever (?) be perfect 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] doesnt make it more fair 10:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] to change a make mechanic that makes beating that rank easier 10:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] the ranks aren't as close, if it'd really be 1 second as you suggested, then it doesn't matter 10:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] if a player spent 3 hours for a ranking because he was constrained by that mechanic, it's not really fair to allow other people to beat him within 1 hour with a newer mechanic 10:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] for most cases yeah but that will obviously happen 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean at that point you'd have to do some statistics 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] someone else wil lcome along and say that this doesn't happen 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] well 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] anyway that affects lke 1% of the playerbase 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] so if u go by stats it dosnt matter at all xd 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] that's not how stats work 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] :pepeH: 10:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] you could e.g. check how far apart rank 1 and 2 are for many maps 10:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] on novice its often very close 10:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] do some stats 10:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] show me the distribution of the time difference between rank 1 and 2 10:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] on all/all novice/all non-solo maps 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] i was jk @Skeith was right lets implement it 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] :justatest: 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] :justatest: 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] Nah but lets be real, this change is worth some pain from everyone 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] i cant think of other examples besides the auto hammer freeze thing but werent there 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] other times where changes were made to the servers that make getting ranks easier than they used to be 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] there were a few minor ones 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] jetpack mechanic has been changed once or twice 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] but it was in the early days 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] but ye the hammer one was big enough at that point it doesnt matter 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] That auto hammer in freeze 100% made some massive skips 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah ive mentionned it 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] earlier 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, I'd argue it's way bigger than fixing weak 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] ye 10:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] it is 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] That was very recent too 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith @snail note that many people forget that you could do the hammer reliably before 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] i wonder how much of an impact it would have on peoples ranks if weak was removed 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] simply spin your unlocked mouse wheel 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] if its in the scale of a few seconds or more 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @onby it hugely depends on the maps 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] makes it harder lol 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] in some maps if weak has the wrong spot its rly annoying 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea. not everyone has a mousewheel like that though 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] loses dozen of seconds and makes it harder yeah 10:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] as a dummy player, please dont remove auto hammer :justatest: 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] REMOVE IT!!!! IT RUINED EVERYTHING!! AAAAH!! 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith it leveled the playing field for people with/without that mousewheel 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] REEEEEEE 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] remove hook, hooking is hard for noobs cuz they have to aim 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] it was possible before @Skeith 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] :troll: 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea lol 10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] I actually did a massive skip on a hookthrough map 10:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] using multiple tees and syncing katana with the hammer in freeze lol 10:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] Got rank 1 on the map, I think some people wanted my time removed lol 10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] look tw 10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] The map was Just Hookthrough 10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] oh 10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] katana :lol: 10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] dont know what your point is what you are describing was just as possible before the fix 10:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] Oh, I was just saying lol, not arguing anything lol 10:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] Was basically saying I knew it was possible before the change lol 10:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah, understood that differently ^^ 10:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] remove jump, its hard for nobos 10:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] :troll: 10:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] Hard for you, maybe.. Not for us big boy gamers.. -pounds chest- 10:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Deleting weak is an old discussion and were already made on DDNet and reverted again. Im absolutely against implementing it. Also The problem about "pirofly" still exists with both having strong because the weak physic is very deep in the code 10:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] Apparently reverted because it was implemented poorly 10:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Stop changes to the game mechanics :peperage: 10:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's a very healthy change to the game, and it'd only slightly affect the times 11:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti there is an easy fix, which will also fix pirofly. 11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Weak is a feature and shouldnt be changed 11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Btw, Where is there no Turn off entities sign in Front layer? 11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] If it's a feature, it's the worst feature in the game, and it brings everything down. 11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] weak is a bug, a bug that exists since forever 11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti you can just use the index from the front layer, entities will show i 11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] t 11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] sounds like a bug 11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] ye 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, I hate the idea of making it an actual feature, when it negatively impacts most things. It's just selfish to consider it such, think of everyone else, don't only think of yourself and your own times. 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] I meant the "turn off entities invisiblei nthe editor" 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] I know, heinrich 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] sounds like it should be removed ingame or from the editor 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> wat 11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] i guess added to the front.png 11:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> It should just be added to front.png xx 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> I see no negative impact from weak. Its easy to deal with it and it doesnt even make a difference on most parts. 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Only all these aoe players that yelling for strong for every simple drag part think its needed 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] If we are removing weak someone else commit it, at this rate Konsti is going to put a hit out on me 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] :justatest: 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> were not going to remove it 11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] Why, it was my idea, kill me instead! 11:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> it was an idea through all years and there were reasons it didnt had been done 11:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Dont start this shit again 11:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea I know, but I brought it up now lol 11:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think there is a QoL improvement needed here if we want new players tbh, maybe a way to indicate you have strong/weak at the very least? 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] I feel like it'd be way better if people just took the hit, it's really just an annoying mechanic, having to learn it and deal with it is just... Bad 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Its skill 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Seems like u dont have 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti stop 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] stop personal attacks 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] new players dont even know that there are 2 hook strengths 11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] No skill involved, you just have to play differently each time, and it's tedious, it's almost like you're learning 2 games in 1 11:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] There is an exclusive club of people that get off on being able to outperform others in slight ways, all the physics changes offend them deeply 11:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti just as you expect others to acknowledge that it can make a difference on maps, it would be good if you could also realize that people brought up arguments that it does negatively affect e.g. the new player experience 11:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] re the "I see no negative impact from weak." 11:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] Awful for newer players, you have to understand that it's difficult for newer players to get into this game, a bug that makes the game feel inconsistent is FRUSTRATING. 11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's kinda understandable, they spent hundreds of hours polishing their gameplay, but does that mean we have to be stuck forever for the 10 people that think like this? 11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Its just bad to change game mechanics 11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> I hate it 11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] Ooh, I have a quote for this one "Stagnation is akin to regression" 11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's kind of a similar issue with older people and technology, they're so used to how things were, they don't want it to change. Even though the change is overall just better for everyone's quality of life 11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] No idea who said it but our business teacher loved saying that 😛 11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] If this is going to be a feature, we should fully dish it out, currently it feels random for new people 11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> there will be unbeatable ranks due fixing pirofly :thonkery: 11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] do we have many new players? 11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] I will personally go through and deal with those times, I will sweat for this change, gladly. 11:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] It'd benefit everyone 11:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] @deen well not really, but if we want them it'd be good to either indicate strong/weak hook or remove weak hook 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] how do you know we don't have new players @Learath2 ? 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] well we definitely have new players, who should be taken care of. also becoming more beginner friendly should always be a priority imo 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] is this just an assumption? 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] For sure, we have a ton of new players 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] I frequent novice servers 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well the player numbers haven't been going up, so atleast it's as many new people as old people that leave 11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] i'm ok with removing it (again) and fixing the few maps that require it. what about the fast fly getting slower? 11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] do you need weak for the quick hammer fly? 11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] konsti claims so. i'm not pro enough to know 11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] i guess it depends on how u patch it 11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] Or players that aren't really skilled yet, weak hook just negatively impacts those players. It impacts literally everyone, we're just used to it 11:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> an indicator on the tee seems good, deleting it big bad 11:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] personally i only speed raced with weak, so no experience with strong 11:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith anything that is seen as a "mechanic" will obviously impact everyone, i dont see how that is an argument 11:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't actually know why speedfly happens on the physics level so not sure if it'd change anything 11:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Speedfly works with strong only 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] did u try speedflying on kog @ᶰ°Konͧsti ? 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> if u fix pirofly i doubt speedfly will work 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] I guess the top tee is the one that has strong so the bottom tee also being "strong" doesn't matter much w.r.t. to that 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] .s/to// 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> no its releated to the weak/strong bounce 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> There is another thing 11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] u care so much about new players, but there arent, and they couldnt care less about a weak hook, they would care more about a tutorial 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 yes, necessarily 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Maps wont work anymore or get verx harder because it fixes the shotgun run with weak/strong 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] My argument is, people are just overly stubborn about things, this change is just amazing for the game, and it's frustrating that people would try and defend weak hook simply because they're so used to it being there. It's not like it actually makes the game better 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki why do you believe we have no new players? 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> u miss out a lot of things 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] didn't we change it before and had to revert? 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] cuz ddnet used to have wya 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] way more players 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Yes deen 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] 2016 the golden age 11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] ppl leave, dont come 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] that just says that more players leave than join 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] not that we don't have new players 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> The shotgun physics are The most important argument against it 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> It requires weak and was used on lots of maps 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] @deen we reverted it because it wasnt a proper fix basically, u didnt have strong while hammerflying and u had no way to figure out who had the real strong 11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] ok 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] so u had no idea who was supposed to drive hammerflies 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> If both have real strong i doubt speedfly will work so 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] changing this will virtually bring no new players 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> lmao 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] well it has to be tested 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] when a player needs to know about strong hook, they are already into the game 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] the entry barrier is way earlier 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] I didn't think it'd affect shotgun physics either as tees don't interact with eachother 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] than the weak strong hook 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] ur focusing on the wrong thing 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti shotgunning other players? 11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] It helps, you're fooling yourself if you think it isn't just a massive QoL change for literally everyone 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] massive qol 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> @heinrich5991 shotgunrun 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] this isnt a massive qol imho 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Its a gamemechanic with weak 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki not improving something because there might be other stuff, is nonsensical 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] how is this improving 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] imho its part of the fun 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] this is not an improvement in my eyes 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Ryozuki well I spent a couple hours trying to get friends into ddrace it is indeed an issue when they try to learn throws 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> It gives u a lot of sidespeed and is used as parts and as tricks 11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] It is a massive QoL, having to figure out who has weak or strong, and having to play around weak every single time you have it is very annoying 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti but if not more than one tee is involved, how can weak/strong have an effect? 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] konsti isnt that mostly on exploity maps like brainduck? 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] or am I misunderstanding what shotgunrun is? 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] However, this change will only help noobs and @Ryozuki is right that without a tutorial we won't get many anyway 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Patiga 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] the shotgun speed boost is and can be used in lots of maps 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 2 tees walk left next to each other, the left one shotguns the right one repeatedly, the one on the right gains massive speed 11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] esp oldschool ones 11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm a noob then, I'd enjoy this change lol. Even though I've been playing for 11 years lmao 11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] Oh, that kind of shotgun run 11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> @heinrich5991 shotgunrun is like hammerrun but with shotgun 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://youtu.be/aYCpB0v4Mcg?t=97 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> And it definitely requires real weak 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] eh there are patched servers, like qshars 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] does it not work on there? 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] here shotgunrun 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Gores and fng are good with all strong 11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Because they dont have weak mechanics 11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm wondering whether the things you assume will break, actually break 11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] so we need a change to try it out, could we get the code from qshar? 11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] and then we need a list of physics we expect to break and have to test them 11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] and maybe adjust the physics a bit if possible 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] I guess the question becomes "Is the work and pissing of Konsti actually worth it?" 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] 100% 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] .s/of/off/ 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> ur pissing of the game 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti did u try on kog or not 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] can u speedfly there 11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] sure, there are more important things like tw7 compatibility. but if someone really cares about this, they can work on it 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> i dont know if KoG did just give strong hook or real strong for both 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] Skeith can code it 💯 👍 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] I can basically hear Wombat calling us lowlifes for changing this 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] And many more 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] I would love to, but I can't code. FeelsBadMan 11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] This discord will be swarmed 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] nah 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] U represent 1% here 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> U 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 the loudest voice isn't always the most important 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] i actually think most ppl would be happy about it 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] Eh, even the auto hammer change only brought like 3-4 mad men out of their caves 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] IF its done properly 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] I highly doubt that, I feel like a majority of people would greatly appreciate the change, including newer players 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] but im sure most current patches break speedfly and stuff 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Because people don't say something if ur doing trash 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> They want to play 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] what 11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] the other wxay arounds 12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] if its trazsh they cry a lot and if its good they stfu 12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah I have a feeling it'll break speedfly and shotgunrun, we'd be capping the speed post tick and I think these happen because of the way collision effects are propagated 12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Anyway it will break the physics if ur giving both real strong 12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Add an indicator for real strong and then give both strong hook 12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] how do u do that on a 64p servr 12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] Me and murpi tested speedfly on noby's server, he has forced strong hook 12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] Worked fine 12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> The indicator would be like the feet for Dj i guess 12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] But yea, idk how he does it 12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> noby fng hast also super hammer 12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] Skeith feels this and that, he feels a lot of things 12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'd feel you 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] Hm actually don't know how you'd indicate with 64p, maybe a slight "glow" around the tees you have strong on? 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] ? 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> The strong hook on fng was with Help from qshar btw 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] u have to rank 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] dozens of players 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] next to each other 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] its kinda impossible imo 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] rank? 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] player 1 has strong on 2 3 4 5 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] 2 has strong on 3 4 5 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> oh right cuz everyone has another strong 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] how do u exactly tell that on 10 players next to each other 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] it will become a clusterfuck 12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] lol 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah, but what's important is for you to know who you have strong on, no? 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] u could do that differently for each player? 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah, sure 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] o 12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats nice then 12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] (tbh thats the exact same problem as we currently have tho) 12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] "a counter intuitive mechanic that makes it worse for beginners" 12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] The order of the entities in the gameworld is what determines this and it's not hard to keep track of that (I think we already do even to force strong) 12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] Could maybe even find the person that has strong on the most people and mark them differently 12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Maybe the hook gets a color Which shows weak/strong for the player ur hooking? 12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] Sounds really messy to me, I hope it's possible to just get rid of weak hook somehow and keep these other mechanics. Are they even actually used? I know speedfly is 12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> shotgunrun Definitely used 12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] to make everything order-independent you have to audit a lot of code 12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think there is no question whether these are used 12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah not as easy as one might think to make it all order independent and I think it does always necessitate a second pass 12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] you could just print a number next to each tee 12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] sounds ugly 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] well, then hook color? 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] huh, sounds less ugly 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] 🙂 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] hook color, a glow around the tee that you can toggle 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] like with the indicator 12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] hold b down to see who you have strong on 12:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 isn't it only external velocity changes that need "balancing" 12:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] hm yes. but that includes collision 12:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] hm maybe we can use a function for changing velocity that everything has to go through? 12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm not confident enough in that solution to claim that it will definitely work ^^ 12:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> How to split a quad in editor 12:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] #2257 is caused because we are missing an offline check in PumpNetwork for the dummy 12:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti you sure it's possible? I don't see any reference to it in code 12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] [5:02 AM] ᶰ°Konͧsti: noby fng hast also super hammer 12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] i turned it off on the test server so they could try 12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> @Learath2 ive seen someone creating a skin with the skin.png everyone have 12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> Like puzzling it in the editor 12:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Patiga do you know something about @ᶰ°Konͧsti's request? 12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] where is it? 12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://discordapp.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/720583600264708163 https://discordapp.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/720584182115598337 12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] i think hold ctrl or shift while dragging something 12:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] although ive never done anything with that, also not sure if its exactly that 12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] okay that sorta works, but im unable to cut it down to something sensible, not smth super stretched 12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] its shift + drag the corners of a quad 12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] @ᶰ°Konͧsti ^ 12:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> xd thx, i made an extra png for everything now xD 13:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] Isnt this basically uv mapping? 13:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] You should be able to map any part of the texture toany quad 13:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] I thought you actually wanted to cut a quad 13:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Like a knife tool 13:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] i think its supposed to be doable by holding space and selecting the part of the image you want 13:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] doesnt seem to work tho 13:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] btw fun bug 13:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] hold space in a quad layer 13:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] select stuff, click 13:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] repeat 13:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] you'll duplicate the image, shift it a bit 13:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] and the visual bug persists over seperate quad layers 15:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] when i was a new player i didnt even know weak existed until some aoe video explained it and i didnt notice 15:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] it was definitely surprising to learna bout it so at least indicate that it exists to new players 15:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] i also think the long term benefits of removing weak would outweigh the few strats it would break 15:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] no u 16:16 <+fstd> snail: what was a fix by me? 17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] removing weak hook 17:16 <+fstd> i remember debugging that and finding the cause 17:16 <+fstd> but i don't think i've ever actually fixed that 17:17 <+fstd> because it would require rewriting a good deal of the game core 17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] i guess im confusing with another patch of urs that we implemented then 17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think the patch was bears 17:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] Y 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 whats the differences between default 0.7 protocol and your imported ones? 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean, what did you add to get them to work for your project 18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] I want to do it the same way for my 0.7 server for 0.6 support 18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] So I need to import the 0.6 protocol and do the changes there 19:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] I didnt change much of anything, I emit a namespace block to keep it from colliding with the actual protocol 19:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] There is crosscompile.py that generates the message maps 19:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] You also need message repacking if you want to avoid ugly bittwiddling to get the larger messages in there 20:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yes, of course