10:09 <+asasier> feeling powerful, eh?, you feel so powerful with your admin/mod/dev powers... but i am going to help everyone who was humiliated in ddnet... DoS for ddnet EVERY SINGLE DAY BITCHES, STOP ME IF YOU CAN, LET'S SEE WHO GIVES UP FIRST!!
10:09 <+asasier> I AM CIDER BITCHES
10:10 <+asasier> REMEMBER MY NAME LITTLE BITCHES
10:11 <+asasier> AND NEXT YEAR I WILL HAVE MUCH MORE SPOOFING CAPACITY
10:12 <+asasier> GET READY!!!
10:13 <+asasier> THE TIME WHERE YOU ABUSED YOUR POWERS WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES IS OVER!!
10:14 <+asasier> IT IS OVER!!! MOTHERFUCKERS!!
10:14 <+asasier> THE COMMUNITY OWNS DDNET, NOT THE FUCKING STAFF
10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> whos this cunt
10:14 <+asasier> CIDER!!!!
10:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> why so angry man
10:14 <+asasier> I AM CIDER
10:14 <+asasier> BITCH
10:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> pls no dos
10:15 <+asasier> I AM THE ROBIN HOOD OF THE HUMILIATED ON DDNET
10:16 <+asasier> REMEMBER ME, I WILL MAKE YOU PAY EVERY TEAR EVERY ABUSED PLAYED DROPPED
10:16 <+asasier> PLAYER*
10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i wouldnt recommend publicly breaking the law like this either it might come back to hurt u
10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> ddosing is like super illegal everywhere i think
10:16 <+asasier> -.-
10:16 <+asasier> BITCH, YOU KNOW WHO I AM?
10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> yes
10:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> and u know me
10:16 <+asasier> NO YOU DON'T
10:17 <+asasier> YOU KNOW FAKE CIDER
10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> u jus told me
10:17 <+asasier> I AM THE REAL CIDER
10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> lol what
10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> theres a fake cider?
10:17 <+asasier> YES
10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> :thonkery:
10:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> does the real one have discord?
10:18 <+asasier> NO
10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> interesting
10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> ive talked to like three different accounts at least who claim to be cider
10:28 <+Ryozuki> "I AM THE ROBIN HOOD OF THE HUMILIATED ON DDNET" rofl
10:28 <+Ryozuki> go ask people, tell them you are the ddoser, you will see how many people support you xD
10:29 <+Ryozuki> you so blind
10:29 <+Ryozuki> get out of your bubble
10:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i mean i agree that ddnet doesnt always handle everything in the best way but i dont see how ddosing is supposed to help
10:30 <+Ryozuki> actually dosing only annoys players
10:30 <+Ryozuki> they never related dosing with complaining about staff
10:30 <+Ryozuki> its ridiculous
10:31 <+Ryozuki> he is just a kid with attention problems, probably his mother left him in the street
10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> how do we know which ones even real
10:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> the discord cider seemed more convincing to me
10:31 <+Ryozuki> both ended up using caps
10:32 <+Ryozuki> both are ridiculous
10:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> afaik the "real" one was banned here for posting nudes? lol
10:32 <+Ryozuki> no, he left
10:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> who got banned for that then
10:32 <+Ryozuki> i dont remember
10:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> [8:03 PM] BOTDDNet: 📤 Canis Lupus#2200 just left the server :mmm:
10:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> [8:04 PM] jao: ^banned for posting nudes
10:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> someone told me that was him
10:33 <+Ryozuki> "The Psychic x3#9694 just left the server "
10:33 <+Ryozuki> it was this one
10:33 <+Ryozuki> or maybe both
10:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i know him too
10:33 <+Ryozuki> who knows
10:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> he even played on my fng server a few times and never caused trouble
10:34 <+Ryozuki> well from your messages you can see he hates ddnet
10:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> if its the same person yeah
10:35 <+Ryozuki> he also went full retard saying "you have complex of superiority for having dev role"
10:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> wut, i got dev role for adding fng entities to ddnet, means absolutely nothing
10:38 <+Ryozuki> i mean, he is obvious blind of his envy against ddnet, why wouldn't he be envy of somemone having a role he doesn't have, and he also finds identified with
10:38 <+Ryozuki> he was all day saying he will code more tools
10:38 <+AmuCookie> I think he is more an attention seeker
10:39 <+Ryozuki> with money
10:39 <+Ryozuki> he says he pays 500€ for the spoofing sv
10:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i think im going to not make any more judgements until we know whos actually him and who (if anyone) are trolls pretending to be him
10:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> the guy banned for nudes was him
10:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> the guy that left too
10:40 <+Ryozuki> if we could just get rid of this kid we would have some no-ddos time maybe
10:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> huh weird hes always been nice to me 🤷
10:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> people have good and bad sides
11:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ReiTW | Blizzard> @Ryozuki i'm not sure he pays that much, I only know from him that he earns money by selling his scripts and tools, but that was a long time ago, maybe he still does that. The problem also is that cider could stay more than 1 month and attack everytime, that's not a problem for him, he's simply a nolife
16:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> nice troll i have the real one on discord but apparently now he doesnt have discord
16:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> :troll:
16:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> [quakenet] <asasier> THE COMMUNITY OWNS DDNET, NOT THE FUCKING STAFF
16:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> 
16:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> this is not rly right but whats right is in my eyes i never see ddnet listening to the community
16:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> they just let other people discuss with them and then they will ignore at least i can say that from my experiences
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> there other other smaller communities like kog community who literally have discord votes for every change they want to do
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> on blocker a famous blocker map was changed by admins because it was crowded but later they listened to a lot of individual people changing the map back to the crowded version
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> if-city literally has a suggestions chat in their discord
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> noby himself takes good suggestions and implements them on his mod
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and idk about the other mods
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> 
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> so why is literally the community with the biggest staff the guys who just dont give a fuck at all?
17:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> btw the mod on blocker is basicly 50% just the community suggesting things so far
17:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> the only thing ddnet is ahead is u can call a moderator in the discord or with /modhelp and im not sure if this works but when it worked i used it in the night like 1-2am and someone cam 30 mins later. wow
17:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i bet this will get ignored for some reason or even better i will get banned from discord because this is not perfectly 100% developer-related
17:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> give some examples please
17:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> the other day before the discussion with this ai guy that didnt understand what an ai is i wanted ddnet to make changes on other mods like fng and blocker when it comes to the botters because literally its full of botters
17:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> so then the discussion with ai came up
17:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and after the discussion noby copied my message and pasted it again
17:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> that's not "not listening to the community", that's simply over reading it/forgeting about it/not having the time to deal with minor stuff
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> congratulations
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> this is not a 1 person staff mod
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> im sure noby himself pays more attention than all the people that are only with some role together
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> fng has like 2 mods
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> without noby xd
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> so what is your argument
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> yes those mods suck then
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> see, because "community" discusses like this, we don't listen to them
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> see, because "community" discusses like this, we don't "listen" to them
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i mean this guy literally decided to do a tournament on ddnet fng and not on noby fng so he can bot
17:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> shootxen or whatever
17:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i didnt read the context yet but theres 3 mods on ddnet fng right? nohack2win me and fumoffu
17:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> and lol yes botting used to be a big problem on fng
17:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> idk if xen was the one but in general
17:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> since ur hosting other mods and not just ddrace u should put some effort into those aswell
17:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> moderators cant fix everything
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> but that's something the fng community has to do, the fault is not at us. you need volunteers from fng that want to help
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> one of the ddnet admins told me they dont really care about fng but its inactive enough to where i dont think theres a problem there
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i think ezy is talking about the other mods
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> like ddnet blocker server
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> ddnet as a whole is the fng ddrace and blocker community
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> block servers are unmoderated since ever
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> its a wellknown fact that the most botters are on blocker servers
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and if u dont want to then dont host it
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i could make or get a botter client and just fullbot on fng or blocker
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> on fng ofc when theres no mod around
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> but this is not the main point this is just one example
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i see people making suggestions every day
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> some are obviously useless but others arent
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and u guys should just pay attention what the community has to say sometimes
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> at least more than now
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> there is hardly enough time the admins have to maintain ddnet idk where this "so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection" comes from xd
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> so why do they have admin role if they are almost inactive
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> it's not "not paying attention" there is just no time for it. I doubt any admin would decline doing something against botters in general
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i see u on discord 24/7
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> ive never seen u offline
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i do kindof agree with this, i still use ddnet 10.6 and think that the time spent updating the client could be used on better protecting ddnet from bots
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> what is negative about inactive admins? do they "block" further development? not really, it wouldn't matter if they are there or not
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> this was not my main point
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> this was just a sidestatement or whatever
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> so what is your point
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i see u on discord 24/7
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> ive never seen u offline
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> this
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and yes there is nothing wrong with admins that are inactive i guess
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> why do you make it about me lol
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> ur right about that
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> also i never said u guys have to have finished everything ive said tommorow
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> u guys still have devs even if their almost inactive
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and if there will ever be a ddnet client version 11.2.2 then that shows that they can believe it or not still code things for ddnet
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> happy?
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> but you kinda expect things to happen fast, you asked about the thing some days ago and already complain about it being ignored
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> :troll:
17:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> well now its definitly not being ignored anymore
17:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and u said it was overread
17:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> no one will go back 5 days to check what ive written if i dont make them check right?
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> [10:20 AM] jao: there is hardly enough time the admins have to maintain ddnet idk where this "so get ur 20 million devs and make a bot detection" comes from xd
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> 
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i thought the point was that the devs could work against botting instead of doing changes like this
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/470613044699987978/Screen_Shot_2018-07-22_at_10.26.08_AM.png
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> now the development of ddnet client is not a bad thing at all
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> fixing bugs seems not like a bad thing to me
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> but it shows that devs are infact active
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> or maybe not
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> but at least active enough to make changes
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> yes and maybe they waste all their free time on fixing the stuff
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> as a whole
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> it shows nothing else
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> I don't think something like bot detection can be done in a day
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> so don't judge if you don't know all the context
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> read what ive said
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> u understood me in a way that u thought i wanted something done in 1 day but i corrected myself
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> and also this whole discussion is not against u put it is against all of staff
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> ima go watch yt now
17:35 <+Learath2> Instead of ignoreing the guy you engaged with it?
17:35 <+Learath2> he is just a deranged lunatic who is depressed, he'll get bored of it sooner or later
17:45 <+Learath2> Showing our 10-20 min fixes and saying that is active is just meh, especiall coming from a developer like yourself @onby, you well know how much time went into the things in that change log you showed
17:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection, and i think its harder to detect bots in ddrace than fng, so if the botter evades the detection, you already spent time on a detection that has been bypassed, and thus its like u did nothing. But instead, those client fixes remain forever and help a much wider audience
17:48 <+Learath2> mine are all 10-20 lines, jupeyy was outside help that was outside help that just added ogl3, QingGo is outside help that fixed dummy issues for himself, heinrich5991's the only one doing significant work right now and he is working on http masters which will stop the serverinfo floods
17:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @ezy also admin doesn't mean instantly that he is a developer, while it's true that deen made nearly all active coders that did enough work in the past admins
17:51 <+Learath2> bot detection can not be done reliably except on edge cases, which we already detect </rant>
17:51 <+Learath2> I'll go back to my math book now
17:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> hf
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Marcel what's your question?
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> [10:45 AM] BOTirclink: [quakenet] <Learath2> Showing our 10-20 min fixes and saying that is active is just meh
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> 
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> yes but some of these things seem like way more than 10-20min of work and represent a bigger total amount of work than making a simple anti bot system
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> which is fine if ddnet puts priority on bug fixes
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> [10:46 AM] Ryozuki: i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> 
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> yes especially in an open source game its impossible to have 100% detection but the idea is that most commonly used bots arent written currently to evade detection so a system like this makes botting a smaller problem
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> strike that "open source"
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> i also have to say that, a good botter that knows coding will always find a way to evade the detection, and i think its harder to detect bots in ddrace than fng, so if the botter evades the detection, you already spent time on a detection that has been bypassed, and thus its like u did nothing. But instead, those client fixes remain forever and help a much wider audience
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> 
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> not every botter has his own client that he can just update regularly a lot of botters have outdated clients that no one works on anymore. ofc there will always be that one botter that codes his own client but if the majority of botters get banned than that would already be a huge success wouldnt it?
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> oh
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> xd
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> noby xd
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> bot clients can be shared
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> currently, there's little demand for fixes against bot detection because there is none
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> yeah they do get shared
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> im pretty sure baumalein is the most used one and its very old and no one works on it also its not open source
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> wait, sorry, don't mention specifc bot client's names, please
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> there's this old, unupdated bot client
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> hm
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> why not auto-ban version 708 to prevent that old un updated client from joining
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I can trivially produce a version of that bot client that cannot be detected like that
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> noby this used to be ddnet
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> theyre not going to ban one client id
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> and other people can do that as well
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> sure there are many new bot clients but ud be surprised how many people simply just find another server
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> but you're not doing this on the biggest server network ^^
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I guess people would have more incentive there
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> lol true but ur still getting rid of many of the players who only are botting because its easy
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I think we should only do that once the protocol has changed enough so that the old bot client cnanot be trivially modified anymore
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> wont this make it so that anyone with any old client couldnt use it?
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> there are many players who prefer vanilla/ddnet version<=9 because of the mouse
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> whats different about the mouse
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> afk for a bit, sorry :/
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> it uses sdl instead of sdl2 so it "feels" different
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> sdl2 changed mouse a little
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ezy> sensitivity?
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i also noticed the change, but after a month i didnt notice anymore
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> im not sure exactly because i started playing with ddnet 10 but the older clients just feel different
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> try using vanilla client and ull see
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> the end of ddnet??
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ??
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> where
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> now
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> xD
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> why
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> idk
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> the channel feels dead and server down and stuff
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> DoS
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> ye
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> But why :GWseremePeepoLife:
18:58 <+Learath2> heinrich5991: why do you care that people say the 708 clients name? everyone knows what 708 is, and the community is pretty stale, people who bot always bot, people who don't don't. We don't get many new players that can be influenced either
19:00 <+Learath2> I do agree that banning it changes pretty much nothing as someone will just modify it and share it again
19:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> this ^ except there two most common kinds of botters are: people who will never stop trying to cheat and make new cheats, and people who downloaded a bot client online and use it until they cant
19:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i think the client version autokick is a decent solution towards the second group
19:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> also the bot client being known at least lets you spot botters on a glance
19:03 <+Learath2> they'll just download it again :P
19:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> while the new version would have a up-to-date ddnet id which you could never spot
19:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i mean they can still use it but whats the point of using a client that most servers wont let u connect with
19:03 <+Learath2> @onby they'll just get a new version of it
19:04 <+Learath2> I'm sure some of the asshats will even bother setting up a cute website for the new client with the modified version
19:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> new teeworlds bots are comparatively alot harder to find than old ones
19:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ehhm that doesnt matter
19:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> the domain is still listed pretty up
19:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and they dont need to cyhange name
19:05 <+Learath2> also we ban it and we lose a way to track them around
19:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> true but is anything currently done with version number info
19:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> like is it saved anywhere
19:06 <+Learath2> It's stored in teehistorian records
19:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> oh cool
19:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> does that make it easy to quickly see which versions are most common
19:07 <+Learath2> anyways, I don't really know if it's a good idea to let it be or just ban, but I feel it changes nothing really
19:08 <+Learath2> @onby not that easy, as teehistorian files aren't plaintext, tools are needed to analyze them
19:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> oh and even if it doesnt actually change anything for the average player it still seems better for sending the message that ddnet is against botting
19:14 <+Learath2> botting is such an overblown issue, not many people bot to cheat in a detectable way on ddnet
19:14 <+Learath2> aimbots aren't that useful, replay bots we keep an eye on
19:16 <+Learath2> hookspam isn't useful, towerbots are kinda useful but no way to detect them, edgebots are also undetectable
19:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> why are they undetectable
19:17 <+Learath2> which one?
19:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> edge and tower
19:19 <+Learath2> edges are already hard to do, which means any edge looks kinda perfect, so how do you seperate perfect(bot) from kinda perfect(human)
19:20 <+Learath2> when the difference is too small heuristic approaches become unfeasible aswell
19:21 <+Learath2> tower we could probably detect with huge overhead on the serverside, but is ruining performance worth it? how tight of a balance on top of a tee is inhuman?
19:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> stuff like that doesnt ruin performance considering how it does so much stuff like polling for map every tick, a couple extra checks end up not mattering
19:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> and i think u cant tell from only one hook, u have  to look for patterns across many of their hooks
19:23 <+Learath2> we'd need to check a line above every tee and analyze the movement of every tee that hits the line for the past couple frames
19:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> and see if certain behaviors happen more often than u could reasonably expect from a human, flag the teehistorian data for someone to review
19:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i think there would be other ways to do it
19:25 <+Learath2> doing all of this after the fact on teehistorian data is viable, but otherwise tbh I don't see a good way of doing it
19:25 <+Learath2> maybe input analysis might reveal badly coded balance bots
19:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> which at this point most of them are badly coded
19:26 <+Learath2> but do corrections on lastcheck + rand()%10 and suddenly it doesn't look that regular
19:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> also im failing to see the difference between an edge (hook?) bot and a hook aim bot
19:27 <+Learath2> I meant the ones that jump on edge always
19:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> oh
19:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> edgehook is always perfect
19:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> well
19:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> not always tho
19:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u have some margin if the thee is really close to corner
19:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> but still i think based on how this type of bot is made that it might be detectable by looking at patterns across many of a player's jumps in a row
19:28 <+Learath2> aimbots aren't an exact science either, you can only catch bad bots with all this stuff
19:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> no because many "good" bots at this point only focus on accuracy and looking humanlike to actual players
19:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> but the server has access to alot more info than players do
19:29 <+Learath2> comparing movement input across many edges is also possible, but as said I don't think it's viable at runtime and isn't exact either
19:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i have a system that checks mouse cursor position against all nearby tee positions at runtime and i profiled the code and it actually only uses a small % of the execution time
19:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i cant imagine that the edge thing would require more
19:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @onby have I asked whether you tested against botox's bot?
19:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> i tested one called teeworlds_botox2.exe as well  as a couple other weird clients that seemed to have the same bot and it was detected after a few shots
19:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <onby> im not sure if there are other versions
23:39 <+Learath2> deen: do you have the process for setting up a new server documented somewhere?