07:47 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> @Moderator can u pls update the ddnet fng2 autoexec.cfg files so that sv_max_clients_per_ip is set to 1
07:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Ryozuki> moderators can't do that
07:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Would be great though
07:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Ryozuki> no
07:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Yes
07:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Ryozuki> wait for a admin
07:48 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ok
07:49 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> no real hurry bcs i can change it in f2 but it should be default option on startup imo
07:49 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ppl abusing dummies in fng is way more common than 2 ppl actually playing from the same house etc
08:09 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> @nobody-mb are you sure
08:11 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> no but ive been admin of a prety popular fng server for a few months and thats what ive noticed
08:13 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> no
08:13 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> but you said no
08:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @nobody-mb you already named the downside: two people from the same IP address can't play anymore
08:29 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> @heinrich5991 were the other 5990 names already taken
08:29 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yes 😛
08:34 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> meh fair enough
08:34 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> is there any way ddnet could add some of the antibot features ive made
08:34 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> if nothing else the ones that look at version number+playerflags
08:38 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> how does looking at sth the client send help?
08:38 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> the version number I mean
08:39 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> baumalein = 708, fclient = 502, zclient = 605 or 602, etc
08:39 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> we dont want those clients in fng at all
08:39 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> what do we gain if we blacklisted these sent versions?
08:40 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> the only reason they haven't changed the version number is because no version numbers are blacklisted right now
08:40 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i mean some of these clients are several years old and closed-source, i doubt the original devs will come back and change that just for one gamemode
08:40 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> statistical methods to detect botting might be actually helpful, I'd guess
08:40 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> im working on this
08:41 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> making triggerbot detection by looking at the patterns of shot delays etc
08:41 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> but the problem is that until i find the exact perfect threshold it can make false positives, whereas version number checking cant
08:41 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but what I mean is that we won't gain anything from that, except for a few weeks
08:43 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i feel like it would just encourage those people to play on other servers instead of trying to adapt their bots to work on ddnet ones
08:44 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ddnet fng isnt even that popular in the first place
08:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Why blacklist bot client, just whitelist dd and vanilla (and possibly h-client)
08:51 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> because vanilla sends nothing to identify itself as vanilla as opposed to any other client  that sends no version
08:51 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and because we don't want to ban any client?
08:51 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> *all
08:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> F vanilla then
08:52 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> what you're suggesting is of no use IMO – it'll take a couple of weeks at most to circumvent this "protection" forever
08:52 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ive had this protection on my server for months and no ones done the hex editor thing
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> why did u delete
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @nobody-mb maybe don't tell everyone what you have to do ...
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> 😄
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> xd
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Hm
08:53 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> once anyone finds a solution to that "problem", they'll share the solution
08:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Well not likely
08:54 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (the "problem" being that you can't connect to ddnet fng servers with some clients anymore)
08:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> well it's not that hard to download DD
08:55 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yea, but ddnet doesn't have cheats
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> people who want cheats still want to connect to the server
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> so they'll find their way around this ineffective protection
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> thats why allow DD only
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> that doesnt necesarily work either
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> see, the problem is: how do you know that the client is a ddnet client?
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> there are clients that send a legitimate-looking ddnet version number but actually have cheats
08:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> the client sends "I'm a ddnet client" and then that's fine
08:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> But it might make it harder
08:57 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> thats all the blacklist would do
08:57 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but what prevents a cheat client from doing the same? – nothing
08:57 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> make it harder for a few certain precompiled shitty bot clients that a lot of people seem to have
08:58 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> then someone comes along and fixes these precompiled shitty bot clients
08:58 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> what have you gained? a few weeks
08:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> so good way of doing it would be making DD send unique,impossible to copy identification code
08:59 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> at least a few weeks, plus everyone who doesnt think to look for an updated version will just move onto another server lol
08:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Witcewouldbeharf
08:59 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Mokuz unfortunately, this is impossible. you can just copy the ddnet client and add your modifications
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and this doesn't even have anything to do with ddnet being open source
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Ye I said it would be harf
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> no, impossible
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> you can watch the same thing happening for commercial games
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> close enough
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> it's not hard to get a bot for a random commercial game
09:00 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> if there were a way to fix it, these companies would do it
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yet, with almost unlimited amounts of money at their side, they're unable to do it
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> because it's literally impossible
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Its extremely hard
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Not impossible
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> ok. suppose it's possible
09:01 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> why doesn't valve do it?
09:02 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> because they could make more money developing new games instead of spending that time perfecting antibot for older games
09:02 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> they make a shitton of money with csgo
09:02 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and they're pretty happy with not developing new games
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> because is spending 1000000000$ , to ban 15%(maybe) of players worth it
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Also its extremely hard even with money
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> well, now you're just pulling numbers out of nowhere ^^
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Exactly
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> But you night get the point
09:03 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> ok, so you're utterly convinced that it's possible to detect all cheats
09:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> M*
09:04 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> tell me a way, and I tell you how to defeat it
09:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> And you can't buy knowledge
09:07 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> ok, first easy idea, just to get started: you copy the original client, but modify the input routine to fire once the aimline hits a player
09:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Super ex
09:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Super ezy
09:07 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> measure average delay between firing and aiming
09:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Already done it
09:08 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ye ive already made a system like this
09:08 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> measure typical delays of a pro player, use these delays
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> wouldnt this either make the bot less effective if the target is moving, or require it to aim as well?
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> @nobody-mb join beefy fng
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> no
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> whhy
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i keep getting kicked
09:09 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> its annoying
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Yea just make neural network that trains from best fng players
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> i wont kick u
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> that definitely isnt an easy solution tho
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> which one, the one I proposed?
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> "just make a neural network"
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> well its still awesome
09:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> ^^
09:11 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Mokuz ok, I'll interpret your lack of answer to "tell me a way, and I tell you how to defeat it" as you don't know any way?
09:11 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i did answer
09:11 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> [2:09 AM] noby: wouldnt this either make the bot less effective if the target is moving, or require it to aim as well?
09:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> well making neural network would be harf, but you wouldn't need to make bot or even play @  all, since it would learn by himself
09:12 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> I actually ment a general way… but if it's still as effective as a pro player, then it's a lot better than I am
09:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> @heinrich5991 if I knew a way I would have done it alredy
09:12 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> then why are you so fucking convinced? ^^
09:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> And the NN would get better over time
09:13 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i dont think its possible to detect all cheats but i do think its possible to make good guesses on whether people are using certain cheats based on their inputs
09:13 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yes
09:13 <+ddnet-discord> <abcqwerty> ddnet is bot client
09:13 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but that's an entirely different question
09:14 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and even that, given a good bot
09:14 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (I gave you directions where you might find one, did you, @noby ?)
09:14 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (I gave you directions where you might find one, did you, @nobody-mb  ?)
09:14 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> idk how to contact the guy lol
09:15 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> k
09:15 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i asked someone and they said he doesnt play anymore
09:15 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> that's probably true
09:16 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but yea, I'm open to heuristics detecting bots
09:16 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> because that's not something you can easily fix without the source code of the bot, or somet thinking
09:17 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> and abouts banning
09:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> maybe make only people who voted, count
09:18 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> we had that in ddnet at some point, you could ask @deen why we don't anymore
09:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Because if I'm correct, over half of all players needy to vote yes for someone to get banned
09:19 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> probably because it caused unfair votes
09:19 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (see how @nobody-mb complained about votes, even though I presume they also have the 50% rule)
09:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> So over half of total votes should result in ban
09:20 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> there is a config option in ddnet that does this
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Is it set on it at official DD srvs
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> no
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Whay
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> we had it on at some point, but as said, @deen disabled it
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> probably for a good reason, but I don't know the exact one
09:21 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> i see it as a bad thing because it makes it more likely for stupid funvotes to pass
09:22 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> people who are afk/busy playing/lazy/w.e wont stop the votes from passing
09:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> well it makes reasonable bans unlikely
09:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> cuz he's not blocking me so I don't care
09:23 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> ehh i think if people know someone is blocking they usually f3
09:23 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> but not always
09:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> when you race all-the-time usually is not enough
09:26 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> iam only talking about fng lol
09:27 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> idk enough about race to really say how it should work there
09:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> When you team 0 with 8 ppl get blocked 5 times everyone in your team votebans him all the time, everyone in chat say hes blocking, and you lose by single vote every time cuz someone decided not to vote is anoyong
09:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> When you team 0 with 8 ppl get blocked 5 times everyone in your team votebans him all the time, everyone in chat say hes blocking, and you lose by single vote every time cuz someone decided not to vote is anoying
09:28 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> what about the problem of disruptive votes
09:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Waath
09:28 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> people who constantly vote to kick other players for no reason, or change the map when the round is almost over
09:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> vote ban him
09:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> I know there is no perfect solution
09:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> But one afker saving blocker isn't on
09:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> But one afker saving blocker isn't one
09:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Like they fun vote like meh
09:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> :feelsbadman:
09:30 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> the solution there is to autokick afks
09:31 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> but ye in general i think the voting system has to depend on things like the gamemode and how active the server mods (if any) are
09:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> yea
09:32 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> The problem is ppl being idiots:feelsbadman:
09:34 <+ddnet-discord> <noby> lol true, hence the need for vote kick system, anticheat, etc
09:35 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> kick system at all
10:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> there actually is no way to know for a fact whether someone is using a ddnet client or not, could make it fairly hard to imitate with a closed source game and privatekey signatures but even those are extracted out of the executable if you know what you are doing
10:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> should have scrolled down before writing that
10:16 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @nobody-mb afkers aren't counted in votes
11:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> how is afker determined
12:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> what are you doing, if you are afk?
12:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> probably, you are pressing all the possible keys on keyboard
12:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yes?
12:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you are moving yoru mouse
12:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you are moving your mouse
12:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> I ment how long you need to be pressing every button and 360° no-scope for it to think you afk
14:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Fng unfreeze protection is too long
14:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> make a poll on forum
14:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> so more people will tell their opinions
14:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Mokuz> Wiiil do
19:00 <+ddnet-discord> <redix> 👆 oops... my fault. Gonna fix it later