15:35 < necropotame> I've not got any success with my proposition of removing flags for language list. Maybe you will prefer this alternative, that at least take care of diversity?
15:35 < necropotame> https://s29.postimg.org/5a8d621lj/language-flag.png
15:38 < Learath2> I still have the same concern with it, it no longer lets me browse the list by the 1to1 association  I am familiar with b/c the flag is bitten off
15:39 < Learath2> and still don't get the point of changing it except for making a statement tbh
15:40 <@deen> i agree with Learath2 on that one, no one cares about flags being 100% correct, it's just good enough to quickly find your language
15:40 <@deen> in a picture form
15:41 < necropotame> Well, do you really think that there is a 1 to 1 correspondence between language and flags? Just think about arabic (good luck to decide the flag!), or indian language (you will get the same flag for several language)
15:42 <@deen> nope
15:42 < laxadedi_> I agree with others, too complication for no real benefits
15:42 < necropotame> I'm not saying that it's super important, but it's always better to thinks correctly
15:42 < Learath2> there is a 1 to 1 correspondence between most of the languages, If I'm looking for turkish I look for the turkish flag
15:42 <@deen> that's what i'm saying, there is no 1:1 correspondence and no one cares about one
15:42 < necropotame> to do thing correctly*
15:42 < laxadedi_> especially since teeworlds has a really small player base and they are mostly europeans and community based
15:42 < Learath2> if i'm looking for french i look for the french flag and im pretty sure quebecieans look for the french flag aswell
15:43 <@deen> i would say flags are good enough™
15:43 < laxadedi> Just look in which country are servers and player located you'll see that this kind of changement is pointless
15:43 <@deen> Well, Chile^^
15:43 < Learath2> quebecois?
15:44 < laxadedi> And also, the flag is used for ping location, not for language only
15:44 < laxadedi> So it should be separated things to do things really correctly actually
15:44 < necropotame> laxadedi, I've not said to remove flags! My first proposition was to remove flag for language. Now, I'm proposing to replace them by something else
15:44 <@deen> but how would you determine what else?
15:45 <@deen> what do you want to display for english?
15:45 <@deen> every country that has english as one of their official languages?
15:45 <@deen> (there's probably ~20 countries)
15:45 < necropotame> Like i said, it's not really important. But it looks far better when you see that devs put some effort to take care of diversity.
15:46 < necropotame> deen -> country of origin + country with the most of people that nativly speak it + a black circle to represent the rest (what i've done)
15:46 <@deen> i don't think we should care about diversity
15:46 < Learath2> well this is my personal take on this but I don't care about diversity
15:47 < necropotame> Which was clear enough :D
15:47 <@deen> if someone feels insulted because we show the UK flag for English language, then that's their problem
15:48 <@deen> https://www.ncsu.edu/grad/handbook/official_language_english.htm
15:49 < necropotame> I know that there is a lot of country the speak english! Thats why it's not a solution to display one country. However, if you look at the list of country whhere there is native speaker, it's much less long.
15:50 <@deen> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
15:50 < necropotame> But I somehow feel that it's a wast that an open-source project decide to stay euro-centric. Private companies have the argument of market, but not open-source. It deserve better IMO :/
15:50 < Learath2> but why is diversity so important? Ofc the list of flags is not correct but its the list that 90% of the people are used to
15:50 <@deen> I count 23 languages with English as a first language
15:51 <@deen> countries*
15:51 < Learath2> weighing convenience vs correctness i'd take convenience every day
15:52 <@deen> Actually I'm for removing languages entirely, just keep English
15:52 <@deen> (that's what DDNet had initially)
15:52 < Learath2> well yeah l10n is meh...
15:53 <@deen> more trouble than it's worth
15:53 <@deen> especially in such a small game where you can find out stuff by just trying it out
15:54 <@deen> and as a positive side effect: people learn english!
15:55 < necropotame> deen: they did it anyway in the chat. This happen when you bring together peoples at the same place. And to do it, it's better to make them feel comfortable at the first place :)
15:56 < necropotame> I personally find all of this interesting because I learn a lot by doing it.
15:57 <@deen> i would say that's belittling people, to say that they are at a disadvantage because their country is not on the flag (or something irrelevant like that) and that causes them disadvantages that you/we have to fix
15:57 < necropotame> I understand that some people don't want to be bothered by this. But i don't think that i18n is that hard. And every point can be discussed and so improved
15:57 < Learath2> it is a nice exercise indeed. i'd actually like to try drawing does circles and cropping the flags in code :)
15:58 <@deen> we have serious issues with other languages btw: can you write arabic and chinese yet using IME?
15:58 < necropotame> deen, in TeeUniverse with Ubuntu, yes. And even menu are reverted in arabic
15:58 < Learath2> deen: guess it works in chat nowadays, but i'm not sure
15:58 <@deen> I mean in DDNet
15:59 <@deen> and Windows too
15:59 < necropotame> and numbers are formated using the language code (so hindi numerals for arabic languages for example)
15:59 <@deen> and do the characters look correct in arabic?
15:59 <@deen> they used to be unconnected because we have no lib for that
15:59 < Learath2> wish we had an arabic speaker here to check :P
15:59 < necropotame> deen: it looks perfect because I use harfbuzz to shape string
15:59 <@deen> yeah, exactly that
16:00 <@deen> necropotame: would be great if you could get that into DDNet
16:00 <@deen> that's something I actually get complaints about, not the language selection^^
16:00 < Learath2> do we use proper SDL text editing now?
16:00 < necropotame> That's the purpose of the textrendering branch: improve the code in general, then once it's faster, bring text shaping in it
16:00 <@deen> ah, cool
16:00 <@deen> didn't look into that yet
16:01 < necropotame> I'm waiting that the last benchmark was merged :p
16:01 < Socialdarwinist> @deen: You are supporting illiteracy if you support searching of languages by flags. After all, it is good to know other languages than English (this is nothing to learn for some, so they can use the languages to learn another language, I mean by putting all into the target language)
16:02 <@deen> Socialdarwinist: Don't understand your argument.
16:03 < Socialdarwinist> You say that people should learn English. But the first step in learning languages is to read the language and not icons.
16:03 < Learath2> Socialdarwinist: Reading is slower then visual recognition for the most part. You recognize a coca cola can before you read the text on it.
16:04 < Socialdarwinist> This is what you claim. After all flags are complex compositions. I feel that I recognize the text better.
16:05 < Learath2> That's what I experience atleast for the 3 languages that I use. Besides the text is also there for you :)
16:05 < Learath2> best of both worlds \o/
16:07 < Socialdarwinist> Learath2 And on the other hand, as has to be realized, flags indicate countries and not languages. It is one step to recognize the flag as a country, and another step to connect the country to a language.
16:07 < necropotame> But you can understand that for Korean language, it's a bit tricky to decide to use north korea or south korea?
16:07 < Learath2> necropotame: ofc there are edge cases but I'm sure all korean speakers are used to looking for the south korean flag at this point
16:08 < Learath2> and hindu speakers for the indian flag, arabic speakers for the saudi arabian flag
16:08 < Socialdarwinist> I look for the names. The flags are background noise for me.
16:08 < necropotame> I'm sure too. But that's not the question. The decition should not be made on apriori concerning how play the game.
16:08 < Socialdarwinist> Learath2 Well, and Gujarati, Marathi and Telugu speakers?
16:09 < Learath2> UX decisions should be made on convenience/practicality alone
16:09 < Learath2> Socialdarwinist: Not sure we have any of those or a i10n for those, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it
16:09 < Learath2> maybe a Gujarati speaker will tell us which flag he'd like
16:10 < necropotame> i don't like pragmatism. it's always making the choice of your current bias. 
16:10 < Socialdarwinist> Why can’t you just do it like on https://europa.eu/? Scrolling to two-letter/three-letter codes is even easier than to parse flags.
16:11 < necropotame> This is ulgy
16:11 < necropotame> And even harder to read the plain-text one
16:11 < Learath2> well i'd take pragmatism over political correctness all day
16:11 < Socialdarwinist> Because they do not use border-radius xD
16:12 < Socialdarwinist> At least you may assume that I am not on the side of political correctness. I find it more efficient to use text.
16:12 < Learath2> Socialdarwinist: and you are used to ignoring the background noise no?
16:14 < necropotame> Learath2, there is no "political correctness". Each question get several anwser, depending of your political point of view. That's why I'm saying pragmatism is thte choice of your bias: you think that it's pragmatic to take one decision, while you are just taking the decision of your personal " political correctness" (that you call common sens maybe)
16:14 < Socialdarwinist> Ignoring things is usually worse than fixing things.
16:14 < Socialdarwinist> Even if you want flags, using graphics is obsolete: The flags should be replaced by Unicode regional indicators: http://emojipedia.org/flags/
16:16 < Learath2> there are many ways to solve any given problem, I find this one works for a majority of the people while not causing major inconvenience to the rest
16:17 < necropotame> Which is that same than removing flags: the majority will think that it's fine (i sure you will never complain that there is no flag in a list of language), while there will be no minority in that
16:18 < necropotame> I'm not trying to force anything here. I just explai my opinion concerning this point. I'm sure that you will keep the flags :P
16:18 < Learath2> Just because we don't get complaints doesn't mean It wont be slower to browse for me?
16:18 < Learath2> s/?//
16:19 < Learath2> e.g. In your last proposal whose flag goes first?
16:19 < necropotame> I'm sure that you will find it faster by focusing on alphabetic order. in particular if the list becomes bigger
16:19 < Learath2> UK or US
16:19 < Socialdarwinist> Unicode with a font that is cared for by someone (for example http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Fonts/Flags.html) would also mean less work. After all, flags are more the kind of things that should be wrapped from somewhere instead of being included in every release. And hey, you could have the pirate flag and the rainbow flag.
16:19 < necropotame> In my proposal, it's the country of origin
16:19 < Learath2> but US has more english speakers
16:20 < Socialdarwinist> The country of origin is an authority. Every English speaker can relate himself somewhat to England. BTW, why not the English flag instead of the UK flag?
16:21 < Learath2> or that ^^
16:21 < Learath2> well i'm pretty sure no one will care either way, Not like we chang i10n all day every day
16:21 < Socialdarwinist> But in necropotames proposal, I do not know what he will do with all the Arab countries or all the Spanish-speaking countries.
16:22 < necropotame> yes, that's why I've put a second one to represent this. There is a reason for this: origin is stable, while population is not.
16:23 < necropotame> Socialdarwinist, my proposal is an alternative that at least display a bit of diversity. I'm still to remove it :P
16:23 < Learath2> say we remove it where exactly does chinese go in the alphabetical order?
16:23 < Socialdarwinist> Better to remove all flags from the program (it is more than half an MB) and add a “country-code” field in the player tab. The user could type in for example RU and the program use it as two regional indicators.
16:23 < necropotame> I'm sure Unicode solved this
16:24 < necropotame> Socialdarwinist, flag is fine when you want to show your country.
16:24 < Socialdarwinist> Here you go for the language codes (the authoritative page): http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry
16:24 < Socialdarwinist> necropotame Yep, this is why I propose to use regional indicators on the player side. Just no flags at the language selection.
16:26 < Learath2> I should stop talking before breakfast... I'd prefer we remove the flags instead of this multiple flag stuff, but I still don't see any advantage in removing the flags
16:27 < Socialdarwinist> Less computer power necessary.
16:27 < necropotame> More than a change, I mainly want to make sure that you all think about it at least :P
16:28 < necropotame> Funny fact: sorting depends of the selected language. libicu can sort a list in function of the current language
16:28 < Learath2> think about the flag<->language correlation or removing the flags?
16:29 < Socialdarwinist> The first entails the latter.
16:30 < necropotame> thank about this question in general. Instead of just using it because it looks cool or because you personally want it because in your case, it works
16:30 < Learath2> my stance on the first one is "People should stop bothering with such small things" the second one is "1 disadvantage + 0 advantage = -1"
16:31 < Learath2> i don't want it out of the whim of my heart or anything, I genuinely find myself looking for the turkish flag if I want something in turkish (almost never)
16:33 < Learath2> sideline: can one survive on cereal?
16:34 < necropotame> http://www.designindaba.com/sites/default/files/styles/scaledlarge/public/node/news/21687/gallery/similar-flags.png?itok=DAIbq6oU
16:34 < Socialdarwinist> http://www.flagsarenotlanguages.com/blog/romanians-are-smart-campaign-and-the-problem-of-similar-flags/
16:35 < Socialdarwinist> Netherlands and Luxembourg, that is a hard one. Even natives confuse it.
16:36 < Learath2> well I can relate to only one of those and I can say it never happened to me :P
16:36 < Socialdarwinist> –.– But you do realize that it can happen.
16:37 < necropotame> In a quick view, I often mix turkish and tunisia ^^ And I still never sure between poland and indonesia :D
16:38 < Learath2> if you are specifically looking for the turkish flag, tunisia usually ends up having way too much white == instant reject
16:38 < necropotame> I've saw this problematic on a tourist bus one week ago. They put flag for languages, and for arabic, they put "Arabic" (in arabic) over a white rectangle :P
16:38 < Learath2> I'd put the flag of the arab league and call it a day
16:39 < Socialdarwinist> I find the flags in the player tab hard to scroll. It would be easier to use the country code, perhaps with an option “display as flags”.
16:40 < necropotame> Socialdarwinist, In an old version of TeeUniverse, there is a list of flag with the name below, and a search box :D
16:40 < Learath2> maybe we should listen to deen and nuke all i10n and call it a day
16:40 < necropotame> Learath2 :D
16:41 < necropotame> Tomorrow, I will talk about gender representation in TeeWorlds (joke)
16:41 < Learath2> oh please no
16:41 < Learath2> I really don't want my views on that public yet, still want to be hirable
16:43 < Socialdarwinist> I thought we could send gender codes (m w and other) to servers, so servers could send messages in the right grammatical forms :D. Only that translators would need to double-fill forms in ICU syntax to make use of it :P.
16:43 < necropotame> don't worry, tees don't exhibit clear gender stereotypes. The only point is how things are translated, and for english, there is almost no problems. (french is an another question. Maybe somedays I will try to fix it)
16:44 < necropotame> Socialdarwinist, yes, it could be a solution, with "other" or "neutral" by default
16:44 < Learath2> No we should send a complex float for gender
16:44 < necropotame> Learath2, XD
16:44 < Learath2> no no a vec4 should be better
16:44 < necropotame> double is better. I'm fearing a precision loss in this case.
16:45 <@deen> Socialdarwinist: yeah, and we should give some gender strong to even out inherent sexism in the game
16:45 < Learath2> arbitrary precision float
16:45 < necropotame> Oh shit, I've forgoten to talk about religion >_<
16:46 < Learath2> I found a use for the extended protocol \o/ gender@ddnet.tw and preferred-pronouns@ddnet.tw
16:46 < necropotame> (lol
16:46 < Learath2> so the server can refer to one properly
16:48 < Learath2> conclusion; no multiplflag pls, if we decide to be correct we should remove them alltogether
16:48 < necropotame> exatly
16:48 < necropotame> exactly*
16:50 < necropotame> deen: what I've done before: https://postimg.cc/image/vv77ju7q3/
16:51 < Learath2> necropotame: do we have proper sdl text editing in ddnet?
16:52 < necropotame> I've not tested it. Socialdarwinist can tell you better than me. One problem is that we don't have text editing rectangle so the IME can display the popup at the correct place.
16:53 < necropotame> i will fix that, following what heinrich5991 did in his closed PR
16:53 < Learath2> should we have a text editing rectangle?
16:54 < necropotame> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_SetTextInputRect
16:55 < necropotame> It display nothing. It's just to tell the IME where you are typing
16:55 < Learath2> oh its just an imaginary rectangle
16:55 < necropotame> yes
16:55 < Learath2> I was really confused for a sec :P
16:55 < necropotame> :P
16:59 < Learath2> #698 is cmake only and im guessing the benchmark before that is aswell, should we maybe start getting rid of bam?
17:00 < Learath2> deen && heinrich5991 && necropotame ^^
17:01 < necropotame> I think we agreed that for now, we keep bam. But I don't think that small tools like a benchmark must be backported to bam. In addition, it's only for this branch, and we may want to remove the benchmark once we merge this branch in master
17:02 < Learath2> i think cmake didn't work on mac or sth
17:03 < necropotame> You mean in the actual implementation of DDNet?
17:04 < Learath2> yeah couldn't compile ddnet with cmake on osx
17:05 <@deen> Learath2: yeah, get rid of bam
17:05 <@deen> I'll fix my build script and the server build on servers
17:05 < necropotame> \o/
17:05 < Learath2> deen: just need to check it on OSX then i'll nuke it :P
17:09 <@deen> how to tell cmake to build only server?
17:09 <@deen> don't have sdl2 on servers
17:10 <@deen> -DCLIENT=OFF I guess
17:11 < Learath2> make DDNet-Server
17:11 < Learath2> or ninja DDNet-Server
17:11 <@deen> nope, for the cmake call already
17:11 <@deen> otherwise it fails because of failing sdl2
17:11 <@deen> but cmake -DCLIENT=OFF works
17:13 < Learath2> yeah it's DCLIENT off
17:13 <@deen> doesn't link
17:13 <@deen> cmake ../master -DCLIENT=OFF -DMYSQL=ON && make
17:14 <@deen> CMakeFiles/DDNet-Server.dir/src/engine/server/sql_server.cpp.o: In function `CSqlServer::Connect()':
17:14 <@deen> sql_server.cpp:(.text+0xec7): undefined reference to `get_driver_instance'
17:16 <@deen> probably missing -lmysqlcppconn
17:18 < Learath2> apparently there was a reason heinrich5991 didn't nuke bam yet :P
17:23 < Learath2> deen: i guess in FindMySQL.cmake L10 we are looking for the wrong library
17:24 < Learath2> I don't have mysql lib on this computer to check tho :/
18:58 < necropotame> just to be sure, tune zone definitions are not editable in DDNet editor and not shared during map download? (I mean, since it's a separated text file)
19:00 <@deen> necropotame: wrong on both
19:01 <@deen> necropotame: Server settings bottom right
19:01 <@deen> and we merge the text file into the map
19:02 < necropotame> I see
19:02 < necropotame> i didn't know that Server Settings was used to define tune zones
19:25 <@deen> there's a tutorial somewhere on ddnet forum
19:37 <@heinrich5991> Learath2: do not nuke bam unless we haven't heard issues for a while
19:37 <@heinrich5991> ty
19:38 <@deen> no one's going to test cmake before bam is nuked
19:38 <@heinrich5991> see the issues that were created on github, see people who came here
19:39 <@heinrich5991> also, I still know of one more issue: I haven't tried to make it work on macos
20:33 < Learath2> heinrich5991: well what could go wrong?
20:33 < Learath2> :D
20:34 <@heinrich5991> I might annoyingly not be able to build on some platform
20:35 < Learath2> ofc after verifying it builds on mac os
20:39 <@heinrich5991> basically still the same
20:39 <@heinrich5991> I don't trust we just got everything right so far :)