12:07 < Nimda> run_cave_grass by kickz just released on Race at 2015-09-14 12:00
12:07 < Nimda> run_ankii by Anki just released on Race at 2015-09-14 12:00
13:13 < laxa> Hey
13:13 < laxa> Just read the chatlog
13:13 < laxa> So, if I understand, EastByte is controlling atm ddnet, and deen has completely stopped doing anything for it ?
13:14 < laxa> It's a bit sad, I was feeling that development for ddnet was never this active right now
13:14 < laxa> *had never been that active
13:14 < laxa> If it's needed, I can pay and give you root on VPS/dedicated server, but I really have no time to give about community and development
13:15 < laxa> I don't wanna see ddnet go down
13:15 < laxa> I guess I could pay 30 euros / month for ddnet, but I'd take a french server, VPS like HH (ddnet website is on a HH VPS)
13:18 <@EastByte> laxa: there actually are enough server sponsors
13:18 < laxa> ok so
13:18 <@EastByte> deen doesn't want to continue on ddnet and there is probably no one else experienced enough to maintain the whole server environment
13:18 < laxa> well
13:19 < laxa> I don't say it's possible to be as good as deen at start
13:19 < laxa> but you really wanna see ddnet go down ?
13:20 < laxa> I guess it's not possible to have only 1 admin only, ddnet might be a bit too big for that
13:21 < laxa> but why not make a 'team' of some people from here to manage the whole ddnet
13:21 < laxa> just at least, keep it online and running
13:21 < laxa> that would be the minimum
13:21 <@EastByte> we currently have 4 admins, so we already tried to split the management
13:21 < laxa> just keeping ddnet online would take a lot of work or not ?
13:21 < laxa> Oh, ok :)
13:22 < laxa> So, why the "no one else experienced enough to maintain the whole server environment" ?
13:22 < laxa> You have few minutes to come discuss about it on TS EastByte ?
13:22 <@EastByte> well, not right now
13:23 < laxa> hum ok
13:23 < laxa> Who are the 4 admins taking care of ddnet now ?
13:23 <@EastByte> https://ddnet.tw/staff/
13:23 <@EastByte> Welf was added because of map testing/release planning
13:24 < laxa> lol, aaa is admin ?
13:24 < laxa> Oh right he told me
13:25 < laxa> Well, I am talking about administration of servers, you are all alone right ? And I guess that's the real issue ?
13:26 <@EastByte> I currently can only maintain a part of the servers, there are a lot of things I haven't learned or have control over, yet
13:27 <@EastByte> and I don't really want to invest so much time for that
13:27 < laxa> I completely get that, so, you would close some foreign server and keep Europe online or something ?
13:28 <@EastByte> not sure whether deen wants ddnet to be reduced to such a level
13:28 <@EastByte> you could just start a new ddrace probject for that
13:32 < laxa> I don't wanna start a project
13:32 < laxa> I want ddnet to live
15:04 <@deen> laxa: i don't really get why you want ddnet to live. you don't even play on the servers and you run your own ddrace servers
15:08 < laxa> Cause it's a great project, I might come back to teeworlds someday, it's a pretty big community, ddrace has never been looking to good
15:09 < laxa> I am running my server for old maps, I might have tried to improve them if ddnet never existed
15:09 < laxa> shutting down ddnet would probably kill teeworlds or at least ddrace
15:09 <@deen> laxa: 99% of TW players have never even heard of DDNet, don't think they would care
15:10 <@deen> most players NEVER disable the default filters
15:10 < laxa> I completely understand that you are bored about the community or whatever your reason is, but, you dedicated a lot of time for this, you really wanna see it go down ?
15:10 < laxa> I don't see where your 99% comes from, ddnet holds 50% of teeworlds players atm no ?
15:11 <@deen> laxa: nope, i want to give it into the hands of someone competent who has time
15:11 <@deen> but since there is no such person, shutting down is the only other reasonable alternative
15:11 <@deen> I've been looking for such a person for a few months now
15:12 <@deen> laxa: we have the same 3k players online every day, TW gets 10k new players every day
15:12 < laxa> How those numbers are coming from ?
15:12 <@deen> ddnet players i estimate, but i see that we barely get new players and mostly old names
15:13 <@deen> Teeworlds players from steam: https://steamdb.info/app/380840/graphs/
15:14 < laxa> Well, does it have anything to do with ddnet ?
15:14 < laxa> ddnet isn't on steam
15:14 < laxa> and if you are stepping aside of this, don't think having ddnet would be a good idea
15:14 < laxa> (having ddnet on steam)
15:15 < laxa> ddnet is a mod of teeworlds, every mod have their time to come sooner or later
15:15 < laxa> it's been the same for counter strike / Dota etc...
15:15 <@deen> well, i'm not interested in spending the rest of my life working on some small mod that no one cares about
15:16 <@deen> i pretty much did nothing else the last 2 years
15:16 < laxa> So, you would care with a bigger player base or what ?
15:16 <@deen> not sure
15:16 < laxa> I completely understand you about this and I can't thank you enough for the amazing work you did
15:16 <@deen> but ddnet looks like a dead end as it is
15:17 < laxa> being on steam might changes thing
15:17 <@deen> it's not going to get on steam
15:17 < laxa> Can ddnet run autonomously with very little work if we only map release ?
15:17 < laxa> how do you know ?
15:17 <@deen> and even if, there would be MASSIVE ddos attacks taking us down completely (not by steam people, there are script-kiddies strongly opposed to ddnet on steam)
15:18 <@deen> laxa: no, servers need maintenance
15:18 <@deen> I mean, I got death threats from them, so DDoS attacks might not be the biggest problem^^
15:19 <@deen> I've never seen such negative feedback towards TW
15:20 <@deen> I guess I could rework DDNet in a few weeks or months so that it can run nearly autonomously, but it would lose some features
15:21 < laxa> Well, I guess that would be what I would do at your place
15:21 < laxa> unless you really don't wanna do anything for ddnet anymore (which I completely understand)
15:22 <@deen> well, i can already imagine the feedback at removing features
15:22 < laxa> What features ?
15:22 <@deen> shut down all non-ddnet servers (zcatch, vanilla, ictf, ...)
15:22 <@deen> only 1 DB server, so high latency for /top5 etc
15:22 <@deen> not sure what other limitations I'd run into
15:24 <@deen> it seems pretty useless to put in years of work into a project like DDNet, when TW can get many more players just by being released on Steam, and BLOCKER servers have more players without doing anything
15:25 < laxa> comparing ddnet to block is an insult
15:25 < devnull> block is a insult for teeworlds
15:25 < laxa> I wouldn't go that far but
15:25 <@deen> well, but it's what people want and play
15:25 < laxa> teeworlds is quite hard to play when you are a beginner
15:26 < laxa> I just looked at numbers
15:26 < laxa> lots of bots and people just downloaded the game without ever launching it
15:26 < laxa> playtime average : 1h
15:26 < laxa> (each week)
15:27 < laxa> And the numbers online are from Steam I guess, so not from master servers right ?
15:27 <@deen> right
15:28 <@deen> ah, another limitation of course: no more tournaments
15:29 < laxa> Thought tournaments were heavily scripted and that wasn't too much work ?
15:31 <@EastByte> meh
15:31 <@deen> meh?
15:32 <@EastByte> you have to do quite a few things manually
15:33 < laxa> Well, to conclude : I think it would really be a shame to completely shut down ddnet
15:33 < laxa> I am ready to help as much as I can to help ddnet staying alive
15:34 < laxa> DDRace wasn't developped anymore for quite a long time before ddnet iirc
17:07 <@deen> Chile and RUS getting DDoSed
17:07 <@deen> Brazil is totally down, might be related
19:38 < devnull> ger is down?
19:39 <@EastByte> not for me
19:39 <@EastByte> but there was another ddos attack
19:40 <@deen> yeah, that's one of the problems with GER's ddos protection
19:40 <@deen> it always bans some regular players
19:40 <@deen> basically every player that was sending a lot of data at that time
19:40 <@deen> even ddnet.tw is banned
19:40 <@EastByte> oh, that's the first time I hear about that
19:40 <@deen> I've seen it a few times before
19:41 <@EastByte> I never noticed any issues except short laggs on ddos
19:42 <@deen> but nfoservers always assured me that those people are actual parts of the ddos attacks
19:42 <@EastByte> anyways, looks like the attacker knows how to deal with nfoservers/internap
19:42 <@deen> reminds me of OVH's ddos protection, that always detects me as a ddos by pressing ctrl-f5 on a ddnet website
19:43 <@EastByte> yep, ovh's mitigation techniques were pretty funny
19:45 < devnull> east
19:45 < devnull> hi
19:45 < devnull> :D
19:46 <@EastByte> hio
19:46 < devnull> wanna play a round?
19:46 <@EastByte> yea
19:47 < devnull> ts?
19:47 <@EastByte> I'm on
19:57 < eeeee> funny how the kiddies were spending their lunch money on ddos for years, but seems like it was teeworlds' release on steam that actually made ddnet efforts seem futile
19:59 < fstd> y u no run a bunch of "DESELECT FILTERS FOR MOAR AMAZING GAMEPLAY ------->"-named vanilla servers
20:00 < eeeee> unethical much?
20:00 < fstd> who cares
20:00 < fstd> it's not even against the rules, i think
20:01 < eeeee> yeah no tw devs care about tw. except when you do that or create mods like 64p
20:01 < eeeee> then they suddenly manage to call a concilium to discuss your ban
20:03 < fstd> yeah okay.  but in this case, what's the worst that can happen; the dummy servers get banned from the masters.  it need not even be done in the name of ddnet
20:03 < eeeee> sometimes they are right though, i remember once some fgt (botox i think) spammed the masters with like a hundred servers advertising sth
20:03 < laxa> eeeee: right, I remember that too
20:03 < laxa> a script running on a server was creating minimal servers to advertise
20:04 < eeeee> anyone would know ddnet does that anyway
20:04 < eeeee> then it might be banned from masters as well
20:05 < Learath2> well saying it in a publicly logged channel wasnt the greatest of ideas
20:05 < eeeee> sounds a little far fetched but it's all wild west there now
20:05 < fstd> and what's the effective difference between ddnet being banned from the masters, and ddnet being off the masters due to having shut down?
20:06 < eeeee> less effort wasted?
20:07 < fstd> yeah, might save one or two hours of effort.. big deal
20:07 < eeeee> i think that's the main concern here. it's totally possible to keep ddnet and even grow it but the problem is that tw gets order of magnitude more players without much effort
20:07 < fstd> i don't really see how that is a real problem
20:07 < eeeee> well that's how i interpret deen's words
20:07 < fstd> is there sort of a penis envy between tw and ddnet?
20:07 < eeeee> there aren't really any problems in here for me since i'm not spending much time on it anyway
20:09 < Savander> how funnyhttps://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/commit/1b2a91f0cff53054cb75182843bfb9de939f8b2a
20:09 < fstd> funnyhttps:// is a scheme i haven't heard of yet :)
20:09 < Savander> haha
20:09 < Savander> sorry
20:09 < Savander> https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/commit/1b2a91f0cff53054cb75182843bfb9de939f8b2a
20:10 < fstd> good commit is good.  as soon as someone does deselect the filter, a lot of ddrace/net/whatever will show up at the top
20:11 < Savander> for me it's stupid to sort by player count
20:11 < Savander> better to stop sorting at first time.
20:11 < fstd> why?  and it's just the default that exists until you set your own sort order
20:12 < Savander> they changed it,m because servers had names like
20:12 < Savander> "!                     BLA BLA"
20:12 < fstd> yeah i know.  but even if those didn't exist, sorting by name is pretty meaningless
20:12 < Nimda> Past by imp just released on Moderate at 2015-09-14 20:11
20:13 < Savander> for me, it shouldn't have any sorts like that on first start
20:18 < eeeee> sort by ping might make more sense
20:19 < devnull> by ping and player
20:19 < devnull> maybe
20:19 < devnull> adding another filter
20:20 < Savander> player count?
20:20 < Savander> in my opinion, sort by player count is bad idea
20:20 < devnull> a combination of ping and player
20:20 < Savander> servers without players will have trouble to get up.
20:20 < devnull> a server with ping between 0-100 with players on it
20:20 < fstd> sorting by latency would be better if has-people-playing was checked by default, otherwise it's pretty useless too
20:21 < Savander> yup
21:11 < eeeee> laxa: EastByte: if you're still in it you might want to start looking for hosters as i think i'm gonna stop hosting ger2 after ger goes down. not sure if you can find any in germany but maybe at least uk or france
21:12 < laxa> As I said
21:12 < laxa> If I am hosting
21:12 < laxa> I'll use french VPS provider renting at OVH
21:12 < laxa> They have a pretty good price/quality ratio
21:12 < eeeee> your call, but deen wasn't exactly excited about their ddos protection
21:13 < laxa> well, it's impossible to get something really good for the price we can pay
21:18 < eeeee> there could be better options than ovh though. people tried a lot of hosters before ddnet settled down on nfoservers which was pretty decent for a long time.
21:25 <@EastByte> laxa: o_be_one already wanted to offer hosting at ovh
21:25 < laxa> Well, ok
21:25 <@EastByte> He also is the only one who could improve the ddos protection for tw
21:26 <@EastByte> Hopefully the ovh game servers have better network performance with udp protocols
23:12 <@EastByte> https://letsencrypt.org//2015/09/14/our-first-cert.html
23:13 <@EastByte> oh, they run a beta program
23:21 < laxa> EastByte: what's so great about them ?
23:21 < laxa> what difference with startssl.com ?
23:22 <@EastByte> afaik it's a completely new approach
23:23 <@EastByte> I used startssl once for eastbit.net but I won't use it again
23:24 <@EastByte> they didn't even let me renew my cert after heartbleed
23:26 < laxa> renewed today
23:26 < laxa> using the cert for postfix and apache